Apostles (Latest Update 0.11: July 2024)

Played the update last night, and I really did enjoy it.
Spoiler free review:

It did really well developing the major players in a meaningful way, even those that did not appear on screen much. From what I’ve read others thought if fell a bit flat, however I think this update will serve as an important launch point for several more plot progressive updates in the future.

Spoiler review:

Sebastian:
With this update Sebastian has easily become my new favorite of the main three, witch is really something considering he was firmly on the bottom before. Of course learning about his backstory helps, learning about his slavery and abuse did help to add some depth to a previously aloof character, like I’ve finally discovered the core of the character behind all these branches of strange choices and quirks. His interaction with Penny and the first conversation with Cynthia were stand out moments, showing off his more calculating side. I also enjoyed his conversation with Heather near the end, the two really work better off each other better now that Heather’s circumstances have changed a bit. Speaking of…

Heather:
I think this update is the best thing her Character could have gotten. Before I found it hard to get invested into her, considering that it felt like she was stuck in basically purgatory, only really reacting to whatever the chaos god Sebastian had planned for her. Now it just feels like she’s under house arrest by a crazy powerful wizard. May not sound like much of a change, but I really enjoyed how much agency she gained with this change of circumstance. She’s scheming, playing and maneuvering around Sebastian and Lily to learn more, and taking note of certain details to take advantage of. Ironically I feel like she’s more proactive now, even though she’s basically lounging the entire update. I know Altair had problems with her being a hypocrite concerning her differing opinions of her brother and Lily, but I don’t really mind since she’s obviously still got a ways to go in character development, and I’ve kind of accepted that most of the main cast are horrible people anyway. I also enjoyed the format of her sections, doing activities in-between her gain was a nice way to pace the section.

Also I really enjoyed the lazy river it was really cute and funny.

Lily:
Lily now occupies the role of my least favored of the main three, Lily was just annoying this update. This update did well to remind me of Lily’s less desirable side. Her visit with Heather was really annoying, insisting on prodding Heather with her continued imprisonment of her brother and overall being really irritating. It’s basically a god of rape telling a murder that she can’t judge. She’s a bigger hypocrite than Heather, and has most likely caused more suffering than both siblings combined. I still like Lily as a character, and it’s all in character, but I really prefer her when she’s hanging with her little group rather than actually being an apostle. TLDR: When Lily’s good she’s really playful, but when she’s bitchy she’s really bad.

Other characters:

Penny:
Given a lot of depth in her conversation with Sebastian and really interested in what she meant by calling herself the half sister of Gretel. Although the conversation has also convinced me that she’ll be of no major importance in the main drive of the story. (Just how she’d want it!)

Gretel:
The sandwich scene was unnecessary, but cute. 6/7 would sandwich again.

The servant:
A really interesting look at the thralls the main apostles utilize, and I’m glad too see that their morally grey origins were debated upon.

Cynthia:
The presumed BBE of the story I found myself really enjoying her. Her chaotic dialog with Sebastian was really entertaining in the first conversation, but the same brand of dialog really hit different after Sebastian’s backstory and her reveal. She’s definitely going to be released at some point down the line.

Nit picks:

The dream novel:
The dream novel was neat, but it dragged a little and some sections were broken or jank, witch came off as genuine and not really as a parody like the section was meaning to be. I did little back tracking and ended up on the other side of a wall wen entering an area while back tracking. I mostly shared Heather’s annoyance during this section.

Skippable sections:
I was confused by the whole “dark subject matter” thing in the posting since I was confused by what was the dark subject matter and what were the optional sex scenes. I skipped Lily and the bother’s scene since it had some rape vibes to it, and then I thought Lily’s favor novel was another since it was basically slobby death feederism, but then I realized that the second scene was was actually Sebastian’s encounter with Cynthia. I’m not against having slob stuff or anything, I just found it to be confusing when told about the two dark skippable sections before hand.

Ya, so overall, a pretty nice update that’s setting up for the future with some cool reveals.

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Glad to see some opposing opinions on it, good to spice it up a bit :slight_smile: Albeit, with more thought my main thought with Heather (who I think L and Heather had the opposite issues to me, where L is a very established character while Heather is one stuck in basically limbo) is that she is so blatantly a hypocrite and no one else in the story has called her out on it to the point of her actually having to confront it, Sebastian (on the blue path) makes sense not to do it since at best he loves her at worst he has better shit to do and she is just an experiment, L however not taking that road is what really irked me, since L is extremely childish and spiteful and has no reason to hold back verbally on Heather, even without the voice, all it would take would be a “Would you care if it wasn’t your brother, yes or no” since Heather was in prison, she probably didn’t jump to defend others getting raped horribly. And for whatever reason, whether good or bad, she didn’t. For me, it rang in a Mary Suish type of way of “This character is above criticism cause _____”(Not accusing Heather of being such, just rang the same way) and I really want Heather to really feel like a complex and enjoyable if flawed/unlikable character (I loved Cynthia this update ffs, I can enjoy some horrible people so long as there is some flavor/complexity to them)

Sorry if I’m clogging up the thread btw, the update and trying to get my thoughts out has been hard with this update, and with people in defense of Heather, I’m trying to help people understand my point of view, if not agree with it.

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@Zabi So Gretel eating a sandwhich beat Sebastian’s back story sage? A respectable answer XD.

@DreadRoach Ah, that’s too bad hearing it was not one of your favorites, hope to better impress next time! I’m actually surpised to see the Sebastian story getting more love then the Heather one. I was worried too many would find it stiff and boring at times, but it seems I was happily wrong!

Ah, and we’ll see some more of Ed and Al sooner or later, don’t worry!

@Turpid Sorry to hear, hope it gets fixed soon.

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Just wanted to put that here, since everyone else said the same things for good reasons :

I enjoyed the sequence of Sebastian’s dog getting fattened more than I should have… Is that normal ?

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@Nopnopenohome

Glad you enjoyed the update! Sorry for all the time it took to put together.

On Sebastian

Glad to have raised his standing in your eyes! I had a lot of fun telling doing the lore with him this update. His wife’s actions in the Court of Broken chains, to the elves System of Clans and Courts, and of course Sebastian’s white haired Nullen history, these all have been elements I’ve had in mind for a long while, but have been waiting for the proper time to show. Hopefully these had the desired effect of giving some more explanation on his actions. His time with his wife spending so many years searching for a non-violent end to slavery in the beastlands contributing to his kinder side…and his time with the courts and Cynthia creating the more jaded side.

On Heather

Yay, glad you enjoyed Heather sections! It was a lot of fun creating all those interactions with her as she explored her new rooms. I wanted to show her new side of enjoying the luxury and pampering offered to her, with of course her old instincts staying very much alive. Her “Interest” in the workings of the chair will be in play later…

And I’m very glad you enjoyed the lazy river, it is among the top 5 sprites CJ has done for the game.

Lily:

I’m actually glad to hear this as your TLDR perfectly summarizes the intentional character flaw in Lily at this point in time!

“When Lily’s good she’s really playful, but when she’s bitchy she’s really bad.”

Right now, Lily see’s things in ‘black and white.’ ‘Good people are good, bad people are bad.’ The people she sees as good, Auburnwoods, especially Sophia and Veronica, Lily would do anything for, and show no end of kindness to. She’ll support them, love them, run into burning buildings for them, and do everything she can to make them happy.

However for ‘bad people’, like Heather, Mauve, and Dina, she shows no mercy. They are more or less her sex toys, and since they are ‘evil’ she sees nothing wrong with hurting, abusing, and assaulting them in any manner she wishes.

This kind of outlook of hers will of course be addressed in future updates as Lily more develops as a person, so stay tuned!

On Penny:

Glad you liked Penny! It was a fun way to tease some of the greater powers still in the world, letting you know that there are other forces at work. You are very right, by her own wishes she won’t ever be a main character. She is the essence of “This world sucks, I’m gonna build my own world with blackjack and hookers…and bugs.”

Gretel

XD. Thought it’d be cruel not to show a little tease of the new happier Gretel that started last update. Rest assured next update we’ll see even more.

The servant

Glad they were memorable! We’ve been seeing the thralls being trained for a long time now, so it was time to finally show one being put to work!

Cynthia

The BBE? Jokes on you, Lady Cynthia is actually the HERO of the story, the grand plot twist! Happy to hear you liked her conversations! “Butter my ass and call me a crab” is among my favorite lines in the game, I"ll admit. I hope players enjoy trying to pick apart her dialogue, trying to figure which part of what she says is “Lie” “Truth” “Madness” or “all three”

DreamNovel

Sorry about the jank bits of dream novel. A Beta tester even warned me about it, but I fixed it in one area and missed the bugs in another. I’ll fix it on the first patch.

Skippable sections

The two skippable sections I was thinking of were ‘slob Heather’ and ‘Cynthia dog murder’ but you are probably right, the Mauve section was also dark and skippable so it should have been in my count.

And again, happy to hear you enjoyed the update and thank you for giving such detailed comments on it!

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Though in terms of fetish content I didn´t really enjoy the update - I think it’s an excellent addition to the game nevertheless. For me this game is not only reduced to the weight-gaining bits but has one of the, if not the best story out of all games here on weight gaming.

That´s why I think it’s good to be building up the lore even more, but I hope we´ll see some more of the other characters and them putting on some more weight in the next updates.

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@Altair123 Have no fear, I am always happy to see discussion and thoughts put out in regards to Apostles, both positive and negative!

Though on L confronting Heather with “Would you care if it was your brother yes or no” I think with or without Lily using the voice, Heather’s answer would be an easy “no.” I don’t really think this would be a point of introspection for her. Heather knows what she’s about, and knows she’s far from a saint.

But is that kind of thinking really so different from anyone else? A mother would be willing to risk her own life to run into a burning building to save her own child…but she’d be less likely to run in to save a complete stranger.

That said, Heather of course still isn’t a perfect person. And Sebastian does confront her at times with it. Summing up the library talk of this update Sebastian told Heather along the lines of “Just as you exploited Auburnwoods for their resources, I exploit you for power I’ll gain from you sloth. If you find you don’t like your own philosophy turned around on you, perhaps it’s time for a change.”

Though Sebastian does mainly take it easy on Heather despite what she’s done, for two reasons. One is because of the teachings of Sebastian’s wife, who preached non-violent means and sought to solve problems through conversation and co-operation. Mostly “If you show kindness to the world, the world will show kindness back.” So because of that, Sebastian doesn’t try to lean too much on “You’re a bad person, and bad things happen to you”. That’s more Lily’s style, and we can see how that’s going. Mauve isn’t so much getting to be a better person as he is becoming a broken one.
The second reason Sebastian is nice to Heather is that every bad thing Heather has done, Sebastian has done the same and much worse.

But those are just my own thoughts on the matter, and being the person who writes it I understand I am biased! I hope myself don’t come across as trying to ‘defend’ Heather from all forms of criticism, as that would make her very Mary Sue! I’ll use your comments to better consider how she’s presented in future updates!

@Triduo

Nope. But you are in abnormal company!

In all seriousness though, while you and me might enjoy the dog getting fattened sequence, I did create it hoping most people would feel the reverse. Of course the awful and evil parts of it will make you feel bad, but I wanted to use ‘weight gain’ with it to make it feel particularly uncomfortable and invasive to the player itself.

Essentially it’s meant to be the difference between sex and rape.

“Weight gain” in normal apostles terms is meant as a good thing. In Auburnwoods as the people get fat, they usually get happier and develop for the better. Most people playing the game find weight gain as ‘attractive or beautiful, a happy thing.’

Lady Cynthia uses weight gain for the complete opposite reason. As she turned Mrs. Pupper Kuppers fat, it made Sebastian miserable and she used to turn his only friend against him, while Mrs Pupper Kuppers devolved into what we saw her become. Lady Cynthia took weight gain, and made it look ‘ugly and repulsive’.

@livegoeson4
While I’m happy to hear you enjoyed the lore, sorry the fetish didn’t quite land for you this update! As you’ve said, the game is meant to be a mix of fat-story, so to fail one is still a mistake. Next time hopefully I provide a better mix of both!

And yes we will see a lot more of the cast next time, as we will go back to the real world and see both Gretel’s story with the town, and Lily’s story at the inn move forward!

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Oh… Well, that makes sense.

Although I hope there’s more of Cynthia coming up because I hate her actions and want her to pay in the most ironic way possible for someone so evil they think they are gods with the world as their playground.

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Very lovely update so far. I am glad of the addition of the new kinks , Lillys excessive behaviour , an interesting plot building up and even darker elements for the story. I am quite pleased and am excited to see more of those things or other new ideas

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@WaxeRed TBF, this is in the context of “nearly every update so far has been a solid banger, even the ones I didn’t think I would enjoy.” It’s mostly that I don’t care for Heather’s segments that much, and even then, this is the best one in my book so far.

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Just to clarify my stance a bit, I totally understand why you feel that way about Heather, however I don’t really think Lily should have pointed it out in this update, or that she is the right character to do so at all.

  1. She’s literally the abuser in this scenario, she has no standing to or should she lecture anyone morally.

  2. She’s neither emotionally aware or intelligent enough to even recognize the issue. Even if she did, she’d have no interest in doing so, and would rather keep teasing and mocking her with the situation rather than make Heather actually reflect. She doesn’t care about her development as a person, so making Heather self reflect on the issue is irrelevant for Lily’s wants.

I’d be totally up for this topic being further discussed between Heather and Sebastian, but I don’t really think Lily is a good character to use for this point in Heather’s development. Heather will have to address this in the future to further develop as a character and will never fully escape her past actions, even if she improves.

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Seems like everyone is doing these long-form review posts, so I might as well jump on the bandwagon.

Showing Ivo clergy that isn’t fundamentalist, schizo, corrupt, or any combination thereof was refreshing, as too were followers of the Niss who are downright terrible. It also set up the next conflict for the story which has been a bit adrift since the Gretal breakdown.

Then we have the Penny exposition, while I like the expansion of her character, I was a bit disappointed about how strong the cast is, they’re 3rd, 4th, and 10th on the list. I feel a bit overpowered. I liked the idea of the apostles fattening remote hamlets to avoid far more powerful forces than themselves. Maybe she’s not aware of stronger players who haven’t made themselves known, but considering her sources I find it unlikely unless they live in a volcano.

I guess now it’s the crux of the update: Heather’s Gilded cage. As someone who always had a soft spot for janky RPGmaker games, one thing I love is when games have flavor texts everywhere this might sound small, but all the little interaction and banter between the shell and Heather when clicking on random shit makes the game feel so much more alive. The minigames were fun, albeit the RPG parody was a bit buggy (I think rather than fixing it would be funny if Heather commented on its shoddy workmanship). I prefer f/f stuff so while the husk isn’t exactly real the WG scenes were nice even if they came off a bit mechanical. I can definitely relate to Heather on black coffee too. The only real complaint I would have would be the lack of Red route Sebastian, (I can’t wait to see what fresh hell McDULTRA cooked up for our porcine heroine.)

I guess now would be the time to mention the sow in the room, that being the slob dream novel. Full disclosure I like slob so I’m biased, I liked the scene aesthetically but I don’t know I guess I like the humiliation part of slob more, and by the time Heather started doing the really slobby shit (both meanings of the word) she really wasn’t heather but rather a drugged up beast that only had barbiturates and barbecue on the mind and wasn’t really capable of being humiliated anymore. I guess I like the idea where the core personality remains intact when they lose control of bodily functions and they are mortified by it, but I really shouldn’t be talking about my subjective tastes if you exclusively cater to one demographic (especially one that’s really out there) you’ll piss off everyone else. So keep on doing whatever you want to do porn wise you don’t have any patrons to not piss off if you made the game exclusively blueberry inflation focused, my enjoyment of game would shift to solely platonic, but I would enjoy it nonetheless.

I guess now is the other skippable scene it certainly gave me some sympathy for Sebastian, a character I was a bit exasperated with before the update. I guess the only real criticism I would have here is choice of music playing while a 14-year boy is being tortured and a dog is being stuffed so much it literately explodes into bloody bits. Its certainly not a bad song but its certainly bad for this particular scene, it’s turn it from tragedy to a farce. In a game like this music is super important, music in games is always important. Yeah Hotline Miami had great gameplay but the reason I still remember it is it’s killer soundtrack. It’s especially important in a game/VN with limited gameplay and mostly text.

The final bit is the Heather/Sebastian section it was enjoyable the dynamic between them is interesting I like the banter you get from clicking on random shit like before. The morality talk was nice, Sebastian’s whole “might makes right” belief seems to have been inherited from Cynthia, It was nice to see Heather have a bit of introspection too.

I certainly enjoyed the update, I’m terrible at quantifying how much I enjoy things, but I certainly had a pleasant evening when I played through it.

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@Triduo Oh, there will be more Cynthia coming! As for your wants, you’ll have to wait and see. Perhaps Lady Cynthia’s MOST EVIIIIIL act will be never gaining any weight herself. How heinous!

@Markava123JD Thank you very very much! I’m happy all the things in the update we pleasing!

@DreadRoach Thank you very much, hope to give you an even better update the next time. And the next time. And the next time!

@Cassent Thank you for jumping on the long post wagon, I always enjoy hearing everyone’s thoughts!

On Ivo clergy: Yes, I did want to show some good members of the church for a change! Even though we’ve seen some corruption in the ranks, I didn’t want to make them the generic ‘religion is bad’ punching bag. The church of Ivo is the main faith of the human lands and has hundreds of thousands of members. Some good, bad, and in between. And you are very right in them being a future conflict, expect to see further trouble coming from them in future updates.

On Penny: I did not expect all this Penny love, but I support it! All hail the Bug Queen of Clowns! On the OPness of the cast, sorry if that isn’t your style, but I thought it helps lend to a bit of a unique nature. The ‘average trope’ of an rpg is to start as a normal village boy/girl, go one a quest amassing insane amounts of power quickly, and defeat the Demon king who’s been training for 1000s of years.

However for Apostles even though we the player start in the village of Auburnwoods, the characters themselves are already well in their journey. I’d say in a way when the characters enter Auburnwoods the ‘story’ is already 80% done, with a lot of the journey already behind the characters themselves and we’ll see in flashbacks or retellings. Gretel isn’t the young girl starting on her journey, she’s closer to the 1000 year old level 99 demon king!

Part of it is inspired by the anime Overlord, which is among my favorites and something I had just recently watched when making Apostles 0.1.

Though I suppose in that vein, even though some of the cast is high on the list, they aren’t quite on the top. And the gap between 2 and 3 is…quite a bit.

On Heather’s rooms: Glad to hear you enjoyed all the little interactions you can get from interacting with things in Heather’s room! Took a bit to get them all (as they all needed 3 layers for Heather’s 3 faces, red under eye makeup, start spring face, and end spring fat face.) but I think it was worth it! Sorry about the bugs in the dreamnovel.

As for red route Sebastian, I will be working on that next and have it hopefully soon!

On the sow in the room, well on the one hand I’m glad you liked the appearance (thank cj) sorry if the story itself didn’t quite land with you. I found it hard to rectify the current character of Heather, while also making her a slob, with the best solution being to melt her mind a bit! There will be future slobs though so hopefully they fit your groove a bit more.

On Sebastian: Good to know. I was honestly worried I was dragging on a bit with all of Sebastian’s long lore talks and backstory this time around, but the response has been pretty positive all around! On the music choice…well I admit I’m a bit biased as I do enjoy that song, but I thought it was the perfect fit for what I wanted. If it helps, think of it as the song Cynthia is hearing, instead of Sebastian.

On Heather & Sebastian: Thank you! I had a lot of fun writing that. I hope they give a good back and forth. As for “might makes right” being something he learned from Cynthia, you are correct. “Might makes right” in conflict he learned from Cynthia, however the “morality in cooperation” is something he learned from his wife.

And once more thank you for playing and sharing your thoughts, I hope I can give an even better update next time!

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First off I just want to say great work!I played all the way through on a new fresh playthrough to expience everything and to test,so far only incountered one bug.The first time going to the broken roads after Lily asks the inn keeper questions the game froze after the transition to broken road from the wagon.I can not under sale how much of a accomplishment I feel it is to only have found 1 bug.I think the writing and about of detail is out of this world you continue to out do yourself!

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@VGWGFET1 Thank you very much for the kind words, I’m glad you are enjoying the world of Apostles!

For the bug, was it a once off occurance, or are you currently stuck there with no way to progress?

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I may as well toss my two cents in. I blasted through the game for the first time over the past couple days. Overall I enjoyed it, the spritework was very well done, and the attention to detail in the writing was something I seldom see in these kind of RPGmaker games.
However, while Sebastian and Heather’s story are (By far) the highlight of the whole game; And Gretel became more enjoyable near the current end when she stopped being a misery guts…

There’s the issue of L

To put it bluntly, she’s a massive black spot on this otherwise amazing game. She is, quite literally nothing more than a psycopathic rapist. Everything she does is based around self interest and mockery of others. There is nothing redeeming or even likeable about her. Sebastian was a bit like this at the start, but as you spent more time learning about him, you see his reasoning, beliefs and why he holds them.
Meanwhile, all the time spent with L just makes her seem like less of a real character, and more of an unneeded shock jock who exists just to taint any solid buildup and positive moments for everyone else.
The scene that I cant get over is when she pretty much convinced those traumatized and abused women to basically kill themselves to be happy.

But besides that, I look forward to the continued development of the game!

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It was a one off if I had to hazard a guess it either had to be the order I asked the questions in or how long I took to ask.When I tried again I asked the questions in a different order and it worked fine.

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I find this take on L, while understandable, completely missing the mark on her character. She does fucked up shit and I think this is because she is mentally more of a broken scared child who got demigod-like abilities WAY too early to know how to use them, I don’t think she is psychopathic since she is shown to actually care (A healthy reminder that she keeps her parents safe in her own personal shadow realm, as was shown in .4, and the implications there are what I’m going off of). She is the equivalent of a spoiled kid, in that until she met Gretel and Sebastian LITERALLY NO ONE could tell her no thanks to her sweettalk and strongtalk abilities, and thanks to that her dad is basically catatonic and her mom is set in an infinite loop of forgetting and remembering who L is with there being no way for L to fix them (Since I assume she’s got them in a “this sentence is false” type paradox. Who here would’ve, if they were let’s say, 13(Since that’s seen as the start of puberty), without any knowledge or care for consequences that the real world has to offer, suddenly getting the power to make people do what you want(not exclusively but especially if they were parents who said “do it cause I said so” or more importantly “it’s wrong because it’s wrong”) would not become a monster within minutes, even if you wouldn’t, what about the next person? or the next person? or the next?

In terms of L and Acedia’s Embrace, I can’t outright say you’re wrong since it’s basically a kinky debate on euthanasia, but I think that was the right call on her part, those women were traumatized and abused, there lives having burned to ash and there bodies having been used by slavers for god knows how long, and for them it was a long and hard road to recovery that in a world of civil strife, corrupt lords and horrific atrocities being committed by citizens try to survive (Gallahad’s (Badass Blonde Wolfgirl who escaped the Embrace by breaking her finger) scene with the kid she gave a bunch of gold to secretly proves exactly the conditions they were going back to as basically homeless traumatized women with no social safety net) how long before these girls would basically had to have relived their trauma by selling their bodies or another group of slavers pick them up as they tried not to starve in an uncaring world. I think Gallahad, who I think is the most moral character in the game (So far, since this may age poorly) having one of the girls enter the embrace alongside her after she clearly showed signs of using denial as a coping mechanism shows that they did not have a good future ahead of them, and at least under the Apostles they’d be cared for (Side note: Definitely excited to see Gallahad again, since she’s got major Simon from Last Sovereign vibes in a good way)

I think L has the most potential for change (and in your eyes, redemption) out of the 3 of the Apostles, Sebastian doesn’t since I think he is pretty deadset in his ways, even if he wanted to trade the Apostle life to go diving with Heather, his task still has yet to be completed and you don’t just give up on something like that easily, especially after centuries pushing towards it (And Heather I don’t think would ever really be able to sway him, she hasn’t exactly been great at manipulating and persuading him yet), and Gretel still has not shown all of her cards, I still have no where to place her but she is still someone, like L, trying to do good with her abilities, even if it is being exercised through conventionally evil ways. But she will always be a hare trigger from world ender, and she is the main Apostle preaching the Niss, so she has the most emotional investment into their success, and with Sebastian keeping an eye on the walking breathing armageddon, I doubt she will stray much from this path either. L on the other hand, is not FULLY seen as someone to take seriously by Gretel and Sebastian, has genuinely wanted to improve the lives of Auburnwoods as a whole (This goes for all 3 of them, as smartly pointed out by Heather, they have the ability to wipe out Auburnwoods and make them all their playthings, experiments, and mindless puppets, I think people calling them evil should remember this fact, and that someone that powerful and evil (For example Cynthia) wouldn’t suffer the minutia and drama of making them willing participants)

In Conclusion, I am still team Apostles all the way, since I still see in the writing for the 3 of them a want to do good with the hands they’re given, if L was a Psychopath, she would have just sweet and strong talked her dedicated people into being hers and just gone with the simplest and easiest way to get her rocks off without worrying about the damage she leaves behind Mauve. I always see myself as the guy where sauce is boss in these games and I’m surprised alot of people don’t see what I see with the character stuff. Cynthia I think more fits the bill of that type then L does, L has not done anything intentionally to anyone who didn’t deserve it yet (And if you try and say Mauve doesn’t deserve it, I really encourage you to play through .1 again, since Waxer did a great job(At least to me) of proving why he and, as I talked about exhaustively in other posts, heather have no room to bitch about there predicament, and I think, while L definitely can be better, I think she is far from the moral event horizon and I encourage those who see L as just a rapist or a barely fleshed out character to playthrough the old updates again, since they really show the different shades of L and why she’s a well fleshed out character.

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Firstly, I want to say I massively respect the effort and poise you put into this counter argument. I don’t know why these kind of places seem to have the most civil debates on the internet.
Andwho
Personally, I really didn’t like how she kept her parents in a state of constant dementia. I understand she is very immature when it comes to complicated situations like this; however the solution she is using can be seen as almost torturous. Especially for the mother who has to keep being reminded of her every time she visits.
And the second questionable scene that I can think of after the euthanasia bit, was when she used her voice on Dina.
Now Dina was awful, that goes without saying. But the way L kept repeating “I’m your friend, your good friend” over and over again was fucking mortifying when you think about it.
And there’s also the issue where everybody is trying to take the moral high ground, but nobody actually deserves it. Mauve was a bastard, but keeping him in what it effectively solitary confinement for months is not “helping” him in any way. She doesn’t care about changing the prisoners for the better, she just wants a fuck toy to abuse and then throw away after a year.

Going back on what you said, I do have the slightest sliver of hope she gets some redemption or character development. Hell, I was pretty sure I would hate Sebastian at first, but he turned out to be my favorite.

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