Apostles (Latest Update 0.11: July 2024)

[WaxeRed]

Hello new month, new progress report!

Before getting to the official stuff, I just want to comment and say I’ve loved reading the recent comments on the morality of the characters! I really enjoy both the serious story and the fetish stuff of Apostles in equal parts, so I love seeing people engaging with both!

Normally I try to give a response to every comment, but in cases of discussing character morality and such I think it’s better if I let everyone come to their conclusions and opinions to share with others. It would ruin the fun if the author came in and told you how you were meant to feel about characters! But just know I love reading all the above comments.

On to the progress report itself. I don’t know if I’ve ever said it before but Dev work for me usually comes in 4 stages.

Stage 1: Initial excitement of getting to work on an all new update, making plans left and right for all the thing I want to do, and am making scenes left and right with PASSION.

Stage 2: The bulk of dev time is here, actually getting into the weeds of work, and it is much less fun ; Work seems endless, progress seems too slow, and things don’t come together quite as you first imagined. Some ideas have to get cut because the end of the update seems months away, yet you are already months into the dev cycle. (Didn’t mean for it to come off as depressing XD. Just take this stage to mean that Dev work is a marathon, not a sprint, and this stage is when you are tired on mile 10 but there are 16 more to go ahead!)

Stage 3: First sign of light! While you aren’t quite there yet, an actual ending to the update is in sight and each good work day brings you closer to it! Seeing the actual end goal brings the passion back and work comes quicker.

Stage 4: When the update is “done” and whats left is edits, revisions, implementation of sprites, and making all the events work properly.

—

I think I’m happy to report that I am nearing the end of stage 2 and getting to stage 3! There’s still one very large section I have to do, but with so much of the update behind me I’m feeling better about getting to that end point! Won’t be this month or next most likely, but we’re getting there. Would help if real life wouldn’t keep getting in the way, but no matter what I’ll keep going slowly but surely!

Thanks all for the support and patience! Hope your new years are all going well!

[poipoipoi1987]

By the way, is the plan to keep alternating between apostles and atlas after each update?

[WankA12]

I suspect that extra information about the things Gretel and Sebastian did will probably make things bad. Discovering that your friend was a mass murderer responsible for the deaths of billions of people is an even bigger revelation than her waistline. Cynthia is also a bit much for most people. As to her relationship with Sebastian, I suspect that her and Sebastian are biologically related. They both have white hair and yellow eyes. They also both do the black eye thing.

If I’m right, what did I win.

[WaxeRed]

@poipoipoi1987

By the way, is the plan to keep alternating between apostles and atlas after each update?

Yup! Sorry, I know it causes slow updates on both games but I just enjoy writing them both too much to stop!

[poipoipoi1987]

Nah that sounds good to me. I enjoy both and switching between projects helps avoid burnout

[Altair123]

I’d rather wait awhile for substantial killer updates than get bland updates every month or so, so no worries imho (Plus you keep us updated on what’s going down which helps A LOT with not feeling left in the dust on these projects, so keep up the good work(and don’t make us wait too long :^) ) )

[Yojumbo]

Does L not notice that bandage on her face?

Not that it isn’t cute, but it’d definitely qualify as a blemish.

[Yojumbo]

I know nothing about fishing but as a gamer this feels wrong. The farther away from land you are, the bigger the fish.

[WaxeRed]

@Yojumbo

I know nothing about fishing but as a gamer this feels wrong. The farther away from land you are, the bigger the fish.

There’s two kinds of fishing. The kind where you go out to catch fish. And the kind where fishing is just an excuse to laze around all day with beer and friends. Replace the beer with cookies and you got the kind of fishing Sam and Sebastian were after that day

[Yojumbo]

This line hits me a lot harder now.

[Yojumbo]

So, latest playthrough while I’m waiting for the new update.

The last two updates hit me hard with context. That context being I started living life as a woman and started HRT.

I don’t know if Gretel’s transition (that involves a change of name, body, and identity) is purposefully trans-coded but if it is, it’s incredibly well written. If not, I’m claiming it anyway.

I also have a theory about Lily’s parents that I’m putting together…

[WaxeRed]

@Yojumbo

The last two updates hit me hard with context. That context being I started living life as a woman and started HRT.

Congratulations! I hope you find peace and happiness ahead!

@Yojumbo

I don’t know if Gretel’s transition (that involves a change of name, body, and identity) is purposefully trans-coded but if it is, it’s incredibly well written. If not, I’m claiming it anyway.

It wasn’t my intention, but I can see it! Won’t give it away with saying who but there is another character that will have a similiar kind of identity reinvention!

@Yojumbo

I also have a theory about Lily’s parents that I’m putting together…

Oooh, exciting! Cant wait to see it! I don’t think anyone has guessed it right so far! The clues are there but they are pretty obscure and separated! With the biggest one a small piece of dialogue in an optional scene!

[Yojumbo]

@WaxeRed

With the biggest one a small piece of dialogue in an optional scene!

Niss damnit, you’re making me want to replay the game again.

[Alphas]

I’ll have to spoiler tag everything given I’ll talk about super late stuff.

We are really sleeping on original Gretel. Firstly she apparently brought her sister back to life. Willow and Sebastian both remark on the Hall and Pit the same way so even though she claims to be unable to die she clearly has experienced what is after. If Gretel actually pulled someone back from the dead then that is huge and something I am sure someone like Sebastian did not just forget. Especially when it sounds like what Gretel did to Willow and what the Angel did to Sebastian sound like two different kinds of resurrections.
And there’s also the fact that I suspect she created the Ribbon of Gula. And you might say that no it’s Cynthia who did because she made the original Apostles. But here’s two things.
Firstly Willow herself when told by that child that the Ribbon was pretty answered “my sister made it for me”. Not “my sister gave it to me”. It might sound weak but what reason would she have to invent a lie on the spot like that when saying either wouldn’t out her as an Apostle or incur any kind of risk. And this was midway into an hallucination of Gretel as a child too.
Secondly “6/6”. When facing the fake Apostles Clair remarked on how all of the sins were there by saying they were 6/6. But we know that’s not true because Gula wasn’t there. And in other “dens of fake Apostles” that were reported to Seb there was still no Gula. Now why would Clair lie while bragging? Or more importantly how would she not know of Gula if she studied the Apostles for so long that she knows everything about the other 6? My conclusion is that whoever is making fake Apostles and the source of Clair’s knowledge on the topic have the same source: Cynthia. Whether it was personal studies on the items or surviving pieces of research or whatever the source for the 6 must be the same. So where does Gula come from? At the very least it must be a recent development that Clair and fake Apostles maker have not gotten wind of yet. And Willow herself was resurrected only “recently”. I’m suspecting that between the Red Days and her death Gretel kept busy. Between figuring out how to bring her sister back and giving her a new Sin that would help her overcome the old one.

There’s still the matter of Sebastian and Cynthia “working together”. And if I try to think of what the hell could both of them want enough to make Seb work with someone whose intention was apocalypse the conclusion is worrying. The only thing I can see Cynthia wanting is for the voices to stop. I’m not sure if she hears the screams of just the Hall or of the Pit too but clearly she thought that killing everything would at least mean no more screaming in the Hall. Assuming that is the goal then what could Seb want that would lead to that result? 3 possibilities but they all might be one and the same. “Cure” death. Getting the souls in the Pit out. Ending the Four. If no one dies anymore than Cynthia wouldn’t have to hear anyone in the Hall. Somehow getting the souls in the Pit out would mean again probably no more screaming and as a bonus Sebastian could get Antoinette back. It might sound crazy but remember is sure sounded like Gretel got Willow out. As for the Four I get the feeling they are responsible for the state of life beyond death as it is. If not well I don’t think Cynthia likes them much anyway so it’s entirely possible she just feels like doing that. All three possibilities probably entail a lot of power needed to pull it off and so a second motive for the missionary work besides just helping people.

[WaxeRed]

Ooooh, you know I always love when someone dives deep into the lore! I loved reading your analysis! I always want to gush and reveal all the secrets you nailed, but I will hold myself back! All I’ll say is that you put together some of my more obscure clues, and fallen for some of my dastardly red herrings!

Just proof I need to hurry up with the next update, before all my secrets are uncovered!

[Alphas]

I’m not surprised I fell for something. I haven’t read this so much I know every line that could disprove my theories. But I do have guesses there too.

Sebastian and Cynthia might not be working together at all. The white and black chess pieces come to mind. If anything Cynthia is the reason why the world would never be rid of death and suffering and I can see Seb trying to find a solution. Although I could think of this exact logic being the reason why he’d attempt one of those three things I listed. Which I don’t think is beyond him to try given he’s the one who would try throwing a stone to defy the gods. But if it’s none of those three things and he’s just trying to stop Cynthia that begs the question of how given that she seems immortal. An endless dream in Acedia’s paradise? I’m not going to try and guess too much.
Speaking of immortality though another possibility is I’ve misread Willow being brought back. She herself describes her situation as being unable to die no matter what she tries. So how’d she end up in either the Hall or the Pit to begin with? Unless her immortality happened after being brought back or as a consequence of it. I can’t rule that out with how little we know of what her “training” actually did to her. If it’s after then I’m only casting even more suspicion on Gretel.

I also forgot to answer the big question.

How do you throw a stone in the air and not have it come back down?

You can’t. Nothing you do can stop the stone from coming back down. Willow would blame herself for it. Sebastian would try even defying gods to keep it in the air. Gretel would just just blame gravity.
So what can one do? Accept that it’s impossible. Focus on the things that are possible instead of attempting something that aren’t. Or pretend to throw it. The old trick of faking a throw and convince everyone you actually did it. Inspire them to attempt the impossible for the sake of trying to be better. I doubt Gretel could have fooled Clair with a trick like this but the question is more philosophical than it is practical. And I’m ignoring throwing it so hard it goes into space because I doubt that’s what the question is about.

[Altair123]

>Sebastian and Cynthia may not be working together at all
Completely off the vibe check when I played it last, it felt more like Sebastian was making sure Cynthia was a controlled variable. He is the Machiavellian type(Not in an evil insulting way, more in the way he views and works within the world) and understands that Cynthia is basically a grown up immortal equivalent of a child killing small animals, and as was proven by Sebastian being able to contain Gretel (Even if barely) he clearly can take a beating and keep walking, but that’s not true for everyone and so he’s keeping Cynthia entertained with his misery and him being the toy she can slam on the concrete since she finds it nearly breaking funny so she doesn’t do something horrible to other people who may not be able to handle Cynthia.
In terms of that question, my brain either says with serious and concentrated effort (Wind magic or fans in the literal version of the metaphor)
Maybe just cause I’m more of a “Kick us while we’re down we’ll break your legs” type of guy(Part of the reason why Sebastian is my second favorite character in the game) but I find it much more interesting when the answer isn’t a flat “you can’t” and more of a “the way you fix the problem is worse than the problem itself” type

[WaxeRed]

New Month, new update!

I don’t know about anyone else, but January felt like a very slow month, but February felt like a very FAST one!

Had a lot of real life obligations that kept my busy for the first half of the month, but I was able to push through quite a bit of Apostles work near the end, and a lot of the more difficult stuff in the update was done! There’s still one rather long section that will need a lot of dialogue and game play work, but I’m closing in on done with one of the largest Apostles updates to date!

However I am announcing the first ever Apostles retcon:

I am getting rid of these GOSH DARN TABLES at WhiteWell clearing. I like how they look, but they’re centered weird, none of the characters or food sprites every line up quite right at them, and every update they annoy me. So I’m sorry if you were DEEP into the table lore, but they are being replaced!

That’s all from me! See you all for the next progress report, which will be hopefully among the last for this update!

[Altair123]

>Biggest Update So far

It’s the from the sheer petabytes necessary to render the sheer graphic fidelity of the new tables

[WankA12]

yay. the update gets closer. Finally, some good food. If you want to think of the table problem as a lore thing, the tables are getting bigger as people’s meals do.

Sidenote, I find it funny both depictions of Gretel are there. I suspect it’s for a reason. I can’t wait to see what the reason is. Also Gretel’s/ Willow’s big belly is hot. She looks like she is really starting to grow properly now. I can’t wait until she demolishes the snack.