I will respond here just to let you know I actually do deeply care. I spend a ton of time talking with people in the community and read as much as I can here. It may not look it but I do try to take in to account as many view points as I can before I come to a decision and that includes what is being discussed here.
I know there as been a lot of tension as of late on how things are being run, and truthfully I want to hear what you all have to say regardless of what it is.
I think we should refrain from insulting staff. They do plenty of good work on this forum and Iāve only had positive interactions with them, even on the occasions where I broke a rule or two on accident.
Iām at the risk of sounding rude, but what you just said is probably exactly what folks here are talking about.
āWe do our best to listenā, is the kind of corporate speak that big organizations have used, over and over again. They talk but offer a whole lot of nothing.
If you want to talk, then tell everyone what your plans are regarding these issues. Do you have any plans regarding these issues? Anything of substance about it? Have you even come up with anything? Iāve seen at least one person mention having a means of oversight where if the project isnāt updated and/or completed, at least have it locked, and issue a warning about it.
Edit: also, this should especially apply to any projects asking for money, whether it be donations or outright payment for whatās offered.
Regarding the AI, the fact there are enough upset about it means that there probably should at least be better categorization of these things. Like mandatory tags or at least saying how deeply itās involved. This should be a site about art, not AI salesmen.
The gojicks/Rose thing has been grating on me a lot and I canāt say I havenāt been disappointed by the staff response. Putting aside his attitude and behavior, yes, the dev has made cursory efforts to post a version of the game that complies with the rules, while still being clear that heās going to continue working primarily on the version that unethically and likely illegally uses real peoplesā photographs without their knoweldge or consent, all while doing his damnedest to drive traffic away from the barely-compliant version. Whatās the line on that? What stops people from making, say, a game about fattening up kids as long as they blur or black out the actual images and never directly state the ages, even with a full version just a click or two away from the wink-wink-nudge-nudge version that doesnāt technically break the rules?
AI is another can of worms entirely, and while I think stronger categorization would be a better step, it doesnāt really address that thereās multiple camps it can fall into: slop content from people looking for a quick buck, and people with genuinely good writing and/or gameplay ideas using it to complete a package they might notāve been able to otherwise. To be clear, I donāt believe that thereās a truly ethical use of AI art generation as it stands today, but Iād rather see it used as a placeholder or crutch, an example of what the finished product could be and to be replaced by using some of the fundraising or sales of the linked projects to commission actual artists, rather than content-farming generic titles with no novelty in gameplay or originality in writing. If someone has talent or at least gumption, with a working design and script, Iām still willing to support them to some extent even if I wish theyād use some other method of art - I believe itās overly reductive to claim that the use of AI imagery anywhere in a project automatically invalidates the creative merit of the work as a whole.
Iāve been a semi-active member of this site since 2019. Which while not quite the total beginning, was certainly fairly close. I just want to say I deeply love this site, and how itās let me not only discover all these new games which I never thought could even exist, but Iāve formed lotās of lasting friendships here, and have been able to just enjoy a space on the internet where it feels comfortable to express our shared niche fetishes. Iāve logged in almost everyday since I first signed up, according to my profile over 2.2k days. I truly believe that Weight Gaming fulfills a special niche, itās not as spread out as Itchio games or private discord servers, and itās genuinely got a warmer and more accepting atmosphere than some other sites Iāve used.
So that being said, I genuinely want to see everyoneās issues addressed, and for this site to remain strong and healthy! Everyone else has stated their issues with the site more eloquently than myself, so all I can really say is Iām glad thereās finally a chance to go over the woes that community members have been having. For my personal issues, I think my primary concern would be project accountability. I do understand devs get busy, and they are the ones who ultimately are the heart of this site, but as has been brought up I do believe that it would be nice if there was some way for the community to address games where thereās a concern about accountability. An example that comes to mind for me, is The BIG Royal Rivalry. Thousands of dollars donated by the community, and the creator has since stopped sharing updates or news about development despite still creating their comic series. I think itās disheartening when a major project like that is just swept under the rug, rather than at the very least being formally addressed.
And on one last personal note, I will say Grot and the whole staff at Weight Gaming have been nothing but courteous and professional whenever we communicated. Always getting back to me swiftly and giving me a thorough response to any concerns Iāve had or reports Iāve made.
What you mentioned with the AI part is probably what should be included: disclaimers on whether itās permanent or temporary of what theyāre using, if itās involved in the writing, the code, the art, or if itās simply a chatbot.
It would need refining, but Rome wasnāt built in a day. Neither was the internet.
Resident lurker for many years here, I feel like much has been said about AI, so I want to shift the conversation to something else. Especially since I only felt the need to post recently due to a certain thread everyone here is well aware of.
My biggest issue currently with how the siteās run is thereās nothing protecting users from getting scammed, and criticism towards any dodgy con artists who find their way on these boards often get shutdown or lead towards no action. The amount of inactive games with active patreons are too many to count. The fact that thereās DRM attached to some patreons is also wild to me. Iām unsure if naming them will get me in trouble, but if youāve been active on these forums, you know which patreons Iām talking about.
I feel this problem has reached itās boiling point recently with another recent thread with a problematic developer who constantly had their posts removed from moderation due to how they handle criticism poorly. Thereās also issues with consent/licensing from a legal point of view for their game demo, yet they still are allowed to make a new thread advertising their itch that still contains the problematic demo of their game, and by extension their patreon, becauseā¦ the link is to a censored version of a game? That at one point cost 1~2 dollars because of how petty they were?
Weāre at the bottom of the barrel here, and the moderation team canāt keep taking no-stance to these kinds of issues. You said itās up to the community to help educate developers, but thatās complete bullshit. Itās your job as the admin team to crack down on sleazy behavior once the warning signs are there. If you want the community to handle these issues, then you need to provide the tools to stop these malicious behaviors that have been on the rise from grifters and scammers preying on this community. Yet, all we have is a flag tool that might get auto moderator to do your job.
Iām extremely disappointed in how you and your team have managed the site these past few years, and I really hope this thread is the wake up call for you to clean up your act.
I want to add Iām another person who has felt very pleased by the courtesy of the staff in my encounters, which is actually what makes me so supremely concerned this time around!
I want to note that between myself and the many people Iāve spoken with the issue has never been with the courtesy or decorum of the staff itself. But rather the lack of willingness to resolve issues except in half measures that ultimately please no one.
It is that half action or inaction that causes people to believe you to not care Grot, or rather, do not care about the community over your own fears of potential liability or violating whatever you believe neutrality to be.
You can say āI actually do deeply careā, but those words clash with your actions. Or rather inaction in the majority of cases.
Iām not feeling this at all, or rather I donāt think this place is getting as bad as many here are making it out to be. To me, it always felt like the outrage was always out of proportion to the offense, to the point of exiling several creators out of the site and space.
Looking at itchās WG listings, over half of the newest listings are AI, so I donāt think that site is any more immune than this one to the flood of slop. I donāt really mind the games using it, better tagging seems like a solution, but honestly I donāt think itās any worse than the huge amount of āI have a project ideaā that gets posted without any intention of even starting it. Itās just really not that active of a space, considering how long and difficult game dev is. I think the huge support and views for the good projects, regardless of medium, should be enough to pique the interest of reasonable creators.
As far as the scammy projects, would be nice to have the report tool used more rather than people getting in long arguments with the authors that make both sides look detestable. I havenāt seen it come up too much other than that recent project, which was also listed on Itch (although gone now?), and some of the overpriced games. Donāt know whatās going on with the former, although Iād agree stricter moderation after linking to forbidden/illegal content is probably in everyoneās best interest. For the latter, I think banning is a little overkill, especially given some of the brigading that goes on from time to time.
Iām glad Grim threw his weight behind this.
I donāt really visit this place anymore when itās not jam season. Itās unpleasant. The vibes are off.
Itās a shame because I know thereās still great people doing great work in this space but having to sift through blatant gifts, dubiously ethical loophole jumpers and endless chatbot āprojectsā to find something an artist put half an ass into is just not a useful way to discover them.
Every community I have enjoyed longterm has had steady moderation. The ones that didnāt were eventually taken over by bad actors.
You cultivate the community you want through your moderation. Itās not tyrannicalāitās your space. The community itself canāt do it alone because we have no real power to correct or kick out bad actors.
I hear you man, I generally dislike AI too and as a 3d content creator, trash comics\games entirely made with it with 0 effort put into them make me sick.
However I donāt think AI quarantine, let alone ban, makes sense. Sometimes there are people who lack the means, be it one skill like writing or drawing or the money to get and support a 3d software (VAM is reasonably cheap as it has an entire repository of good quality free resources and stuff but still there are people understandably unwilling to spend that money) and chatbots allow them to fill in the gaps to produce their own pet projects without involving more people who oftentimes will legitimately require pay.
As much as I myself tend to avoid stuff made with AI I think the only solution is evaluating it case by case
Gonna bring up a separate issue Iāve had regarding how the site is run as long as weāre airing our grievances. While some might disagree Iāve noticed getting specific, referable answers to questions about site policy can be difficult. As in questions get asked, and then either answered in the discord, through DMs to another user, or just completely forgotten about. It ends up making decisions feel more like theyāre dependent on whichever mod you happen to be talking to rather than an actual site ruling thatās been discussed.
I think the last jam kinda exemplified that for me personally. Ask your questions about judging in this thread, weāre even putting a link to it! No response to questions in the thread. Oh we answered that on discord at some point, go scroll through that if you want a quick reference of site policy/rulings, or maybe get a completely different answer from talking to a different mod! Weāre going to address this in a post-mortem. No post-mortem for what, 8 months and counting now? It just feels like for every clear answer thereās three more that are completely lost, or put somewhere where only a few people get the chance to see them.
As much as like being able to talk to site staff directly, itās a bit silly when I canāt find information about the forum ON the forum. Thatās one of the whole points of the format, being able to reference information and conversations in specific threads.
Maybe that has more to do with the rest of what everyone is saying than I originally thought. It does feel like thereās a lack of hard rulings in the name of preventing drama that lead to a slow degradation of the experience of being on the forum as a whole.
Also, with the introduction of the wiki I am wondering if the curated projects category is a bit redundant. A good chunk of those are unfinished and havenāt been touched in years, so I donāt know if ācuratedā is a good label at this point anyway.
Iāll probably have more to say once some of the other things people have brought up have been addressed, but I will say I hope some of those staff responses find their way into the site rules. Which Iām now realizing are labeled as an FAQ for some reason.
Well i would love to see someone compile complete list of games posted newly this year to this fourm.
Then with that list i would love to see a few breakdown graphs of games. For instance percentage that do and donāt use ai, breakdown of ones with a patreon page vs without. Ones that provide a free to play demo vs donāt. Maybe then possibly @grotlover could then add a gamesposted per user, as in #gamesposted/userbase size for each year.
Would also like to see the same done for a previoous year in the past for a similar time period in that year.
People keep talking about all this hurt others are doing with their posted games, and complaints about what devs are or are not doing. Yet my perceptions is I see the same rate of games posted as i did before i made my account on here in 2019(i was around well befrore i decided to participate with an account), and with the same rate of patrons, itch.io and other things. I guess that is where the graphs come in to show how much it has actually changed.
Iām of the onion nothing has really changed, while people seem less tolerant of others, and other ways of doing things.
This whole if your not doing my fetish or not doing it my way then gtfo, just sucks from a community standpoint. I personally am not a vore fan but a lot of weigt gain fetish games include vore, but i have not nor am i complaining about all thee games that include vore or vore is the main fetish posted here. Really the same goes for furry also.
Honestly, I think whatās going on here isnāt really what everyone thinks it is after some more thinking. Just hear me out for a moment. Iām a developer with 10 years experience, not just any random girl on the internet.
This may be more a forum software issue. Everyoneās talking about how itās gotten so much more difficult to browse games, not to mention all the AI slop which IS indeed worsening the already-existing issue, but removing it wouldnāt solve the root problem. I would like to clarify, however, that removing AI would alleviate the issue, and that it does seem to be worth it, because the biggest issue here would take far longer to fix, while an AI ban would bring up morale in the short or medium term while the main issue is worked on and give people less to complain about.
I also donāt think this is a result of mismanagement by the staff. As I stated before, they are quite nice. I would seriously doubt any sort of corruption whatsoever based on my experiences with them. They always seem to address any sort of drama going on calmly and carefully. I do agree that often they donāt go far enough in certain cases. Take that rose game for example, the dude is clearly a money-obsessed creep, but the game itself didnāt break any rules and you canāt really ban for moderate harassment until youāve at least given a warning except in severe cases. If I was the staff? Screw social norms and rules. Kill (FIGURATIVELY!!) that dude. Immediately. No appeal. However, we arenāt in a forum where we ban people based on personality, for better or for worse. He was warned and hasnāt done anything bad since (as far as I know), with the staff already stating there is the potential for a ban if that behavior is continued again.
So with the staff mismanagement bit out of the way, why is everyone so upset? Why is the site harder to browse, full of slop which often uses AI, and constantly getting complaints?
This is because weāre all having problems browsing the site, but we canāt easily put our finger on what it really specifically is that makes it so hard to browse the site. Many of us see that most of the boring and low effort content is often full of AI art. We get sick of seeing it all the time. There isnāt a clear way to hide all AI posts, so unless youāre particularly smart, it becomes a big problem, and we see posts about removing all AI to make the site better and we think thatās a real popular solution that will bring us back to the good old days before all this yucky AI, further polarizing people more against it.
I will repeat this again for anyone who thinks I support AI: The removal of AI content WILL benefit most of us, viewers and developers, but it wonāt solve the real problem thatā¦ I really should actually explain instead of just saying āthis is the real problem.ā I will do that now.
This is a forum software called Discourse.
Discourse is for discussions. It wasnāt made as a way to post projects or browse them.
This was fine in the beginning. It used to be hard to make a game. Very hard. Not too many people were even capable of making a game. These were the āgood old days.ā If you made a game, you put your heart and soul into it.
But time has moved on.
Games are easier to make than ever. Grab a quick no-programming engine. (As a developer, please DO NOT DO THAT. Learn programming. It isnāt as hard as you think, the hardest part is getting that motivation to really learn.) Write your silly text adventure, and then export and post.
There are so many developers now. Everyone wants to be one, and everyone posting is usually a first-time developer with no experience whoās just going to post a low effort game and then never post again in most cases. We donāt really have larger groups of people or more experienced people, though I donāt know how that could be fixed. Feel free to give some ideas on that.
This isnāt because of AI. AI has made it much easier to pump out low quality games with more confidence because it gives the impression of higher quality to inexperienced developers who think you need images for any fetish game, and underestimates how hated AI is. Not to mention how immoral it is. However, as demonstrated, it worsens the problem but doesnāt address the root cause.
Now letās take a moment to think.
Weāre all viewing the most recently commented on games, including dead ones that havenāt been updated in forever among other things, when weāre on the forum. We canāt see quick images like logos or gameplay to quickly filter out which is low quality like we can on itch. Itās also quite hard to filter out which youāve already read through for the same reason. This is a forum software issue. It canāt be fixed.
So whatās the solution then? The site is just going to keep getting harder to use and die out? We need to destroy all the āmy first game :Dā posts?
The main site. That seems to be the only possible long-term solution here.
āBut the forum is the main site, isnāt it? Thereās nothing else.ā
Not quite, we have a wiki, and thereās some big news about that which I wonāt be spoiling, but you may notice we are on forum.weightgaming.com, not weightgaming.com, the true main site.
What is this mysterious main site? I donāt entirely know, but based on what Iāve heard across a couple different posts, the most likely answer seems to be a sort of āWeightGaming itch.io.ā I would assume itās custom software, meaning anything can be fixed. People will probably be able to give ratings, sort by rating or most popular or recently updated, only display finished projects, and more. All the low quality AI stuff, if itās even allowed, will probably be at the bottom of the list with the number of bad ratings. People who donāt put any effort into their games, and that rose guy we all seem to hate, will also be at the bottom for the same reason. A proper browsing experience.
Of course, the vast majority of this is assumptions, so take it with a grain of salt. When the main site is out, itāll probably be a little lacking in features. This is okay. Itās a huge accomplishment to create such a thing, and I thank the developer(s) for all that theyāve done on it so far.
The main site probably wonāt be out for a long time, but Iām very optimistic that it will take this community to the next level and solve most of our problems.
EDIT: Oh. That was quite long. Oops?
So that āitch but for Weightgamingā idea is a pretty good one (assuming the resources are available to manage it), and I think thereās room for compromise between the various parties with such a system.
Should such a platform be made, it could potentially have its own in-house monetization/donation system that could require approval for a game to be eligible for. That way, grifting and chatbots would be relegated to external sources (and therefore not cluttering the project lists) while making it so, while not eligible for monetization, passion projects that use AI or other controversial methods to make up for a lack of ability in certain departments can continue to exist.
I feel like that would be a fair compromise between the AI and Anti-AI corners of the forum, while also helping to significantly reduce any grifting problems present in the community.
Very unlikely, Iāve researched a lot about monetization and stuff. You would probably want to hire a lawyer experienced in quite a few countriesā laws to even attempt that.
Fair. That is why I said ā(assuming the resources are available to manage it)ā
Perhaps rules regarding linking to paid content could be enacted on the forum to a similar measure or something. I do not have much knowledge on the practicality of these ideas.
Yeah, posts being like primarily only sorted by whoever most recently commented, with no other ranking system, and the pictures being the most recent commenterās pfp instead of OPās has always driven me insane. And people have to post a self-comment or repost to indicated an update released, and itās hard to tell that from random conversation unless they update the title for it. In any case, Iām mostly just here personally to find fat character mods for games.