Why most furries ostracize otherkin, the thread.
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I donāt even know what to do anymore. I feel like I have been writing this one book for years, and I feel like Iāve been writing it too slowly. Iām worried that if I do get it finished that no one is going to want to publish it because āpeople only want humans=goo/everything else=bad media.ā Even if it does get published, Iām worried it might reveal poorly and not sell because āpeople only want humans=goo/everything else=bad media.ā And maybe, just maybe, Even if it does get really good reviews and decent sales that itās just going to get overshadowed because āpeople only want humans=goo/everything else=bad media.ā Even if absolutely all the stars align and the book I am writing becomes a huge smash hit and even wins awards, is that even going to be enough to add some diversity to the heroic characters in media? Probably not, even if I wrote a 100 Books. Itās not going to stop me from trying. It has been a passion project of mine to try and get something out there in the media world, but at this point, it just feels like Iām supposed to suffer.
But it didnāt used to be that way when it came to video games. My favorite games all ended up being games games from the Sega Genesis super ninja is, super nintendo and Sony playstation least you should because that was when characters could be diverse. It might have already explained why I really liked shining force so much, but between the 2 saga Genesis games: humans, centaurs, Bird men, werewolves, a Phoenix, a dragon, a robot, a fox girl, a golem, a rat person, a jellyfish, badass Armadillo with a lance and steam powered armor and even freaking Gamera himself all join forces to fight evil. Breath of Fire 1 and 2 had humans, dog people, fish people, a minotaur, a mole, a monkey, a frog and even itās own badass Armadillo. I guess Armadillos were popular then. Suikoden 2 for the playstation? Humans, Dog people, a wolf, flying squirrels, octopuses, a unicorn, a griffin, a robot, etc.
Compare that to Fire Emblem where, no matter what, every character needs to be bound to humanity. They can have Mounts, animal ears and shape-shifting powers, but never can they simply not be human. Project X Zone has just humans and humanoids and nothing else. Genshin Impact? I have already exhausted that.
That might be another part of my problem: it didnāt used to be this way. There used to be more variety in heroes. And I am sorry that I donāt respect a company for caving into whiny demands that people want more humans when there is thousands of human-only games. Also, donāt you think criticizing me for wanting heroes besides humans in Media but defending people for bitching about a game not being about humans might be just the tiniest bit hypocritical? I know I am too, but again, I DONāT have many other games to go to that satisfy what I want unless I play on my phone. I canāt help it if I get frustrated. I know that I am getting needlessly aggressive, but this is something I have just been begging for in media. And when I have hundreds of people telling me that āthat is just the way media has to be these days,ā that just makes me more and more frustrated. Iām sorry.
Forgive me if Iām a little confused, but is there an actual project or story that youāre currently working on, or is this book allegorical to your views expressed here?
If the former, I wouldnāt be worried about trying to change the world (or mainstream media in this case) and those concerns holding you back from telling the story you want to tell. You change culture and society by changing thought, and you change thought by presenting works to people that challenge pre-existing views. So what Iām getting at echoes the prevailing advice mentioned throughout this thread, which is to go create - be the change you want to see and lead that non-human revolution.
If your craftwork is good enough, then recognition will be duly garnered - if not by the media writ large then by the fans that resonate with your ideals.
The book, actually, is a bit relevant to this forum since the main heroes are glorified sumo-wrestlers/crime fighting animal hybrids with an underlying theme of power VS speed and how power must learn to think quicker in order to beat opponents that move quicker, though there are moments where all they need to do is be a tank. The main protagonist, specifically, is the one who constantly fights fast opponents and usually loses to them.
I am tempted to express my views a little bit if I add an āAbout the Authorā section to my book, though.
You keep saying that all media these days is just āHumans good, Everything else badā but I am inclined to disagree with the way you put that. I can list a good few pieces of media where the goal of the protagonist(s) is to protect some form of nature from some evil humans (albeit most of these are environmental stories) such as the book Hoot, the movie Ferngully, and many more.
That may not be the definition you mean. Though, if it is not, I suggest a change of wording because they way it comes off as to me as simply choosing to ignore anything that invalidates your argument.
Even then, in the way that I assume you mean āHumans=good, everything else=badā there are a good few stories Iāve seen with animal protagonists. Untitled Goose Game comes to mind, since you play as a goose. Then there is some game (I forget the name) that is coming out that looks like you play as a house cat that got lost in some old city. Mind you none of these are fetish games/stories, but I am assuming that youāre talking about media in general. That and I do not want to seek out such fetish games where you play as a non-human, as I simply do not roll that way.
In short, I simply disagree with the statement that all media says āHumanity good, Everything else badā (in fact, if you look in the right direction, youāll find that a lot of media says the opposite (mind you they will still have human/humanoid protagonists)). If you meant to say āThey no longer make media with non-human(oid) protagonistsā then I would argue that you are simply looking the wrong way or outright refusing to look the right way.
EDIT: Addendum to the first point: I would argue that there is no media that shows Humanity and Nature in such Black and White. If anything, itās nothing but gray. Neither nature nor humanity is ever fully shown as purely good or bad. There are good people and bad people, and thereās safe nature and dangerous nature. Only in situations where the settingās world has been royally screwed over will you find stories where all of the nature is out to kill you, or that you mostly fight off nature.
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As much as Iād love to see more games with more non-human characters (Iām a scalie and an absolute sucker for monstrous designs if you canāt tell by my profile pic), this is sadly not the way to go about it; nor is the case youāre trying to push the best one. All-human character rosters will remain the norm as a general rule of thumb for a lot of media, from books, to games and to films. Itās what we look to when we think of a character. A person. We know of no higher sentient life but ourselves. And itās not true that humans are always portrayed as the good guys or the best, or the non-humans always vilified.
There are already a great many examples where humans arenāt featured prominently or focused on.
Letās talk about film. Pixar. It wasnāt until The Incredibles, which came out in 2004, that the company gave a film that was primarily, fully focused on humans. Not animals, not typically inanimate objects ā humans. Pixar had been making otherwise non-human focused films since 1979. But why did they? Itās because non-human characters were the best vessel for portraying issues and ideas, as opposed to humans.
And touching on games, games increasingly nowadays, more than ever, are giving you the option to play as monsters, animals, things that arenāt considered human. They push the envelope for a better way of thinking. I think examples for this can go at the very least, more than a decade back. From my own memory, the first thing that impressed me was Halo 2, which allowed you to play as the very aliens you fought in the first game, and in 3 you fought alongside them as allies.
There are plenty more films and games out there which prominently feature non-humans as either allies of the protagonist, the protagonist or otherwise helpful.
I sadly struggle to think of media that has an explicit anti-nature/anti-non-human stance. Sure, you can name a few which have non-humans as the narrative enemy, but that more often than not isnāt the point. Non-humans used as a vessel for horror, the unknown, etc, is perfectly fine. Itās a storytelling trick that has been used for time immemorial. I love monsters. Do I hate watching Aliens because the xenomorphs are explicitly the antagonists? No, I find it a very fun movie, because the Aliens being the antagonists isnāt the point of the movie ā it is not an anti-nature stance.
To conclude, I have to respectfully disagree that people need to grow a more āopen mindā and that media is perpetuating a Man (Good) vs Nature (Evil) narrative. And I must sincerely disagree that we as a species are not diverse and unique. Itās often more ambiguous than that even when the topic explicitly addresses such. What you can take away from this is that certain games have certain focuses. A game can be about trying to hide from a scary monster (non-human). A game can be about fighting all those monsters. A game can be about interacting with all those non-humans. And thatās all perfectly fine. Itās what the developers wanted to go for. And there will always be other games that cater to different tastes and wants; thatās the beauty of the media we have nowadays. The selection is massive and diverse. There will always be something for someone. And if you want more of that? Support it. But do not try to subvert the stance of other peopleās work.
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Honestly, Iād like to respectfully disagree, but I really canāt, because I canāt respect humans=goo/everythingelse=bad media. I donāt think it is OK that we constantly portray non humanās as villains. I donāt think itās OK that we keep portraying ourselves as Godās golden miracle. I donāt think we are diverse. We are one species. And I also donāt think that media is as diverse as you are talking about. What, a meme game and a game that letās you the be the badguy? Anything recent? As far as what I am complaining about.
Genshin Impact
Witcher 3
Star Ocean
Fire Emblem
Hades
Lost Odyssey
Kid Icarus
Project X Zone
Seikiro
Red Dead Redemption
The World Ends With You
Megaman X/Zero
Horizon
God of War
Phantasy Star Online
Octopath Traveler
Etc.
All of those games have either very few or no non human good guys, and theyāre almost always side characters. Witcher 3 PRETENDS it isnāt doing this, But all of its āgood guy monstersā are nothing more than deformed humans, with actual non humans almost strictly being villains. Horizon actually tries to have a pro nature Vibe to it, but it puts that into a hunter, The one type of person that I believe should not be used to do that and the type of person that Iāve had hundreds of people constantly tell me are the most amazing and flawless people ever. Octopath Traveler does this, too. And these are not even obscure titles. Most of these are award winners. Hades is 2021ās GOTY. When was the last time a game with a non-human protag won a game of the year award? Even the absolute most popular non human starring games have not won game of the year. TWEWY was Is a game that when it was released, people would not shut up about how it was the greatest thing ever.
Also, I continue to watch humans in real life just go around and wipe out animalsIs. How many animals have gone extinct through our actions in the past decade? Honestly, I think the biggest problem is that media constantly villanizes animals, so no one cares about them. Why should we? Nature is eeeeevil. And if there ARE examples of media that have nature and nonhumans as goodguys, then what are recent examples? Because media that actually has a pro environmental message is almost universally hated, again.
Even if it doesnāt bother you seeing your favorite monsters or animals as the bad guys, it legitimately makes me feel sick to my stomach every time I see humans killing elephants or cute animals in Media, especially when it is treated as a good and heroic thing. There is no way I could possibly get used to this when real world issues on our constantly being reminded of.
Iām sorry. It gets frustrating when people tell me itās just OK, and it shows you why Iām fighting tooth and nail for this: because no one else is. If not even furries are willing to fight for creative and diverse heroes that show that humans arenāt the only good and valuable creatures, then that just makes it feel like my fight is more justified. I mean, if this isnāt the way to go about things, then what is? Iāve tried so much, and NO ONE has even remotely understood my problem. And before you say anything, I REFUSE to just accept it. That is how much I hate the humans=good/everything else=bad cliches. I donāt want them to be prevalent. It is literally painful for me to see that idea be so dominant, and I am just about ready to lose it. I seriously cannot take this cliche anymore. I want to like.the heroes. Is it do not want to keep seeing media where I absolutely despise the protagonist. I do not want to see media where the villains are just a 100 times more interesting and like a bowl because they are not held back by the same restrictions. Itās good I do not want to see magnificent is magnificent real world creatures villainized over is villanized over and over and over to the point where humans legitimately see all non human life as evil and worthless. This is probably something I am going to complain about for years to come because it becomes increasingly insufferable the more I see it.
Iām sorry that that is what Iām calling it, but that is what it is. You you also mentioned a few old things that a lot of people do not like. Anything recent and well recieved?
I also do not know how I am supposed to go about things. Again, this is something I desperately want to see a change to in media and I cannot just accept it.
Edit: I think I am understanding another reason why I have these issues, and it might show a different side of me, but I will explain it later. It has to do with my problems compounding and how I can sometimes ignore what I hate and their awards and such and focus on the good and why I absolutely cannot someday, but I want to wait till I can use my voice function again.
Hereās the thing: my hatred towards the cliche fluctuates. While I always hate the cliche, there are some days where I can cope with it and focus on the media I like. I found myself going back to playing Skyrim recently, as well as a game I played a while ago called Ghost of a Tale: a Redwall inspired stealth game that actually has a story that drew me in. Is I have also been playing Crash Team Racing Nitro Fueled recently, have played tons of Rivals of Aether, Spyro, Armello, SuperEpic, Sonic Mania, etc. I am always finding new and interesting furry games to play, even if most of them are okay at best, but sometimes I do find really good ones. SuperEpic was a surprisingly good and underrated Metroidvania with a very fun combo system, although itās somewhat preachy anti-mobile gaming message was a little annoying. Iām also hoping to get Mad Rat Dead, a rhythm game that I have heard good things about and have played and enjoyed the demo of, and I also plan on eventually getting a few others like the ori saga, kaze and the wild masks and others.
Speaking of mobile gaming, there are tons of them that I happen to really like. Just recently, I have been playing Zooba and a new game called Botworld. A lot of my favorites are still on mobile gaming store like Primal Legends, Monster Tactics and a few others While also watching games I donāt like such as Celcius Heroes and MonTowers2 get taken off. Is it always baffles me how Mobile gaming has so much Variety in its characters compared it even to indie gaming, which also has some cool ones. Honestly, I tend to have more respect for mobile gaming than most people for that reason alone.
Some days I can just focus on those. Then there are the days where Iām just so frustrated with humans=good/everything else=bad media, Is that it is hard for me to focus on the good. And. They see that media with non human protagonistic characters are making a comeback, but humans=good/everything else=bad still dominates gaming. While it is true that some of the games Iāve mentioned have won awards. Crash Team Racing Nitro Fueled won best racing game of the year. But so far, all the games that have won best game of the year for the past decade or so have had almost strictly human goodguys, with Breath of the Wild being a slight exception, but still having a somewhat generic feel and WEAPONS THAT BREAK ALL RHE TIME!
But it is made worse whenever I want to is want to express my feelings and problems come and problems, and then Iām given a bunch of arguments and being told that this is just how things have to be. Itās more frustrating when not even furries are willing to fight for more diversity in protagonistic characters, even though both furries and non furries say that they would like non-human protagonist characters. And it just makes it harder for me to see the Good.
Iām afraid this seems more like a personal issue youāre having where you focus far too much on the subject matter. Iād recommend taking a step back and not view every art form as something thatās trying to push a Man (Good) vs Nature (Evil) narrative when non-humans are not protagonists, since thatās simply untrue and a terrible way to actually review a game by.
You are only ending up making yourself upset when you do this.
Yeah, Iām a scalie. That doesnāt mean Iām going to āfight for more non-human protagonistsā. Forcing my own creative vision on other creators, is not exactly a kind thing to do. Everyone has different ideas and that has to be respected. Itās not as if having human characters in the first place is a toxic idea that must be squashed.
If you want to see more non-human stuff? Simply support it. Give them money. Work for people who do that stuff. Etc. Not force a vision on people who have little interest in such a subject matter; thatās particularly tone-deaf.
Please consider your stance here. Youāre actively seeking an issue that is not the intention of developers to create and becoming offended by it.
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Hereās the thing: having human characters isnāt the problem. ONLY having human characters when your world can easily support non-human playable characters, portraying EVERYTHING that isnāt human as evil, putting all this charm and creativity into characters that I am NOT supposed to like while give none to characters I AM supposed to like, and supporting a real life mindset that non-humans are evil and worthless, which causes ACTUAL HARM to the world because that is how life outside humans is FREQUENTLY portrayed and many people do legitimately think that way is the problem. Not only does limiting your heroes to humans severely limit how creative and diverse they can be, but I canāt respect humans=good/everything else=bad media because I do believe that concept is dangerous and toxic, and thatās a big reason I donāt support games like Genshin Impact or God of War or Kid Icarus Uprising, etc. I know I come off as angry with the caps, but I am just trying to emphasize key words.
You can have humans if you must, but you seriously canāt tell me your view of the world is so narrow that EVERYTHING ELSE exists in your Universe just to kill or be killed by humans. Even when you do have non-human goodguys, we canāt enjoy them by actually playing as them, or they required to have human support? Again, so many different creatures have yet to be protagonistic in Media. Humans have been done millions of times. Even if you take away the awful implications, I still find it boring.
Edit: honestly, I feel like I have made my opinions clear. Iām not budging on my opinions. No one is. I donāt think thereās any reason to go on. I just want to move on and find another reason to be here.
This doesnāt exist, though. I mean I get it, you see it, it feels that way, but youāve had so many people give examples to prove this isnāt the case. Itās certainly not a mainstream view.
Weāre not trying to convince you of an argument no one is making either, but weāre also saying:
- It doesnāt happen
- What looks like does happen is a common trope, though not perfect, and
- Just our own views.
Every reply of yours feels like youāve attempted to brow beat others to agree with you. That or to reply just to give a response, without recognizing the views given by the person you replied to.
I donāt know what your goal was, for posting this in a forum for kink adult games, to be honest. But it looked like either an argument, or just preaching about something multiple people have told you isnāt happening.
And I hope it wasnāt the latter.
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You keep using Genshin Impact for your arguments, despite it being repeatedly pointed out that what you preach here does not even apply to that game.
Humans are not portrayed as good there. At all. Neither as all bad. Nothing is. The world, like our world as well, is not black and white. Nothing is ever only good or bad, especially not ridiculously large groups of things like all humans, or even factions of them.
Just because you donāt like any of the non-human characters in game does not mean you can just say they are portrayed as bad. Adepti are undoubtly the good guys, on the side of the gameās protagonist and protectors of an entire nation. You having a problem with them being aloof and removed from humanity just because theyāre not cuddly friendly little pets does not suddenly make them evil. The most important Adeptus is even the God of Geo, a playable character.
You even have Oz the raven and Gouba as non-humans that assist other playable characters too.
Please stop pushing the narrative that Genshin Impact is somehow anti-animal or only has humans as āthe good guysā while vilifying all non-humans, as that is plainly false.
You are the only one who reads these things into media though? That ānarrativeā that media is apparently trying to push does not exist. You made it clear that you are unsatisfied and frustrated since popular media does not cater towards your fridge interests. The arguments for this have been rehashed above plenty of times, so thereās no point in repeating them.
Please just stop paying attention towards that kind of media? Donāt watch TV, only search for games with specific tags or within communities that propagate these kinds of games.
This forum does have a furry tag, now developers that make these kind of games just have to use it.
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Just, no. I donāt want to start an argument on that. Iām just going to say that you would really have pissed me off by saying that that is not a thing, because it absolutely is.
This seems like a very long winded way of expressing frustration at having your unique preferences not more commonly present in mainstream media when youāre preferences are indeed not mainstream.
Is it really that shocking that the majority of media is focused on people who are human? Itās the commonality we all share, whether you reject that or not.
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The āworld protecting adeptiā either are just humans who shape-shift or donāt like humans. Itās not too late for them to just decide that the three bird Gods are villains.
The crow probably isnāt even a living creature.
The snake is purely a decoration and nothing else.
The God of Geo that is LITERALLY just a human with God powers.
And again, It doesnāt matter that there are human bad guys. When you get rid of all the fluff, they are still the only real good guys. And I am being honest: Genshin Impact isnāt even the worst offender, just one that greatly pisses me off. Iām sorry that I am rehashing my arguments, but making the claim that humans=good/everything else=bad media isnāt a thing is bringing my issues from frustration to infuriation. Now I REALLY do not want to continue because I am bound to say something I might regret if this goes further.
Adepti is a large group that includes non-humans. So far the only one we have seen shape-shift was Rex Lapis, the Geo Archon. Mountain Shaper, Cloud Retainer, etc. are purely animals. They have nothing against humans, they even protect them. They just see themselves as separate. Xiao is a Yaksha. Ganyu and Yanfei are half-human.
The crow is a living creature. Why would you state otherwise? They can clearly think, speak and move by themselves. Donāt confuse game-mechanics with lore.
The God of Geo is an Adeptus. A dragon.
Heās currently hiding his form because heās playing dead to retire.
And I never talked about Baizhouās snake. I was talking about Gouba, the red panda that is Xianglingās companion.
Why do you continue to ignore the Adepti? Because you think they donāt like humans? Shouldnāt that, wrong as it may be, be a point in your favor?
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Baalf. Do you think that what youāve written here is persuasive?
You said you want to write a book. So as a writer, let me compare this thread to the book writing process.
Part of writing any kind of lengthy project involves soliciting feedback from your peers and audience. In a novel, one way to get that feedback from beta readers. A beta reader should be providing feedback on how they felt while reading the text. What characters did they like/dislike. What moments were awesome or bad? What parts were clear or confusing? Additionally you should have as many beta readers as you can reasonably get. Then as a writer, you take what they give you and evaluate the information. If a bunch of your beta readers tell you that they were confused in one particular section, then itās a clear flag that something needs to be addressed. Clarified. Because if a ton of your beta readers have that problem you can be guaranteed people who buy the novel are also going to have that problem. Reviews will tank. Then sales.
Youāve written over eleven thousand words here. Thatās the length of a short novella. The comments here are like beta readers. They have all, in some form or another, expressed confusion, or disagreement, or disputed facts. Clearly something is not working.
What you have written has clearly not managed to persuade people.
As a aspiring writer, you have to use this to get better. It doesnāt matter how annoying it is that people donāt share you opinion. Iāve been there when people have expressed confusion over something Iāve written that is very clearly written. It doesnāt matter. If your goal is to communicate an idea and persuade people to share that idea with your writing, and that doesnāt work, then you need to go back to the drawing board.
If you want to better convince people that your beliefs are true and should be emulated, then youāre going to have to find a new approach.
The question you have to ask yourself is āHow can i be more persuasive?ā
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@Baalf, I really think you should talk to some kind of professional about this. This forum is an incredibly kind, supportive one. Theyāve offered you honest advice, which you sure donāt have to agree with, but nothing theyāve said should make you so angry.
I understand your frustration with trends in media you find distasteful. I often wish more modern films could have action scenes again that arenāt stuffed full of CGI and stunt doubles. So I dig for more obscure stuff that suits my tastes, and try to support the few occasions that Hollywood goes for practical effects (it does happen).
But no one should ever expect the mainstream media to reflect their own tastes 100%. If it does, chances are theyāre a boring person.
Making your own art is the only way any of us can change the landscape even a little, and Iām very glad to hear youāre making an attempt at that. But if you get so upset at hearing constructive criticism, thatās a problem. Your work may never get off the ground, and neither you nor us wants that.
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Youāre right. Iām getting frustrated. Honestly, I just want to end this discussion peacefully. I even made posts just now that I thought were too angry, so I tried to tone them down a bit. Also, I am thinking about starting a thread discussing the book I am writing, which is pretty relevant to this forum since the main protagonist characters are fatfurs. I donāt think anyone is going to want to listen to me at this point unless I can just end this calmly. Can I mod lock this thread?
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