Again we’re talking in hypotheticals here so it’s hard to get specific. But yes if for example someone came in and said “Unity fucking sucks dick. Switch to unreal loser.” That would be pretty useless. But you could also get “Hey I can see what you’re trying to do with this part of the game here. Unity really struggles with things like this. Maybe you should consider switching to Unreal? It might have the better tools for what you’re going for.”
Most of the comments I’m talking about fall into the latter category. And I still believe the category 1 people should be able to post about it (as long as they’re not being repeatedly aggressive or rude). It’s pretty easy to scan through obvious trolls and shitposts (at least in my experience). As long as they’re not talking about how a completely different game is using Unity, and are focused on how it relates to this game in particular, then I would view those posts as being on topic as they are talking about the choice of engine as it relates to the game. You may view it as useless as you have no intention of swapping, but it’s a valid point of discussion of the audience.
I think it wouldn’t end up being particularly productive, but it does sound like it would be fun. I can already think of one candidate who would be ready to defend the use of AI.
The only way I could see things being changed by the discussion would be if there was some stare decisis on AI that’s established during it, but I kinda doubt that would happen. Regardless, my vote is for doing it, if only because it would be a cool event.
Edit: Maybe ask this question again in a place where it won’t be lost in a sea of other arguments, also.
I understand the pain of getting cut off before you can finish saying your piece. I know the feeling of seeing an opponent get the last word just by being lucky enough to post before the cutoff–I’ve been on the losing end of that before, including on this forum. But just because you weren’t allowed to post doesn’t mean that the mods have something against your side of the debate in particular. When they decide that a discussion has turned bad and needs to be shut down, they have to draw the line and stop it somewhere. Someone is inevitably going to get the short end of the stick, but that’s just a matter of unfortunate timing, not targeted squelching of particular opinions.
And I do think that that discussion was turning unproductive. I was trying to be gentle when I made my one post in the topic, but frankly, I could already see the flames rising at that point. So, unfortunate as it is, I’m not surprised that the mods decided not to hold the door open for you, so to speak.
The issue isn’t really regarding that. Though it is unfortunate that some users are allowed to demean others while some aren’t, my main point has been that the discussion wasn’t off-topic. Everything in the thread was pertaining to the creators use of AI in his own game. They weren’t talking about AI being used in some random other game. Everything was centralized to a point. I don’t see the need to halt healthy discussion when it was doing no harm to anything and was still relevant to a topic which had naturally arisen from the game itself. And it’s also bizarre to me that only some posts would be deleted and not others. Like if you’re going to crackdown at least be consistent and delete everything instead of being selective about it. This whole thing makes no sense.
You may view it as useless as you have no intention of swapping, but it’s a valid point of discussion of the audience.
As game developer I think it is a valid point to discuss WITH the audience. If someone ask why developer used such game engine or tool it is fine. If someone tells developer that there is some better tools which could better fit to project it is also fine, but if people start discussing with each other about their preferences in different tools that is not fine. Of course, I haven’t seen the remote discussion and therefore can’t form an opinion based on a specific example in this particular case.
“Healthy discussion” is not at all what I would have called it. The dev said he was done talking about AI and asked people to turn to other topics that were more useful to him, and instead, someone else did the exact opposite and basically pushed him out the door. Respect was already down the drain at that point, and it was only getting worse. And that would have doomed the discussion no matter how on-topic it was.
Again I can see where you’re coming from. It would be annoying to have people start up unprompted discussions on what engine the game is using. But I believe that as long as the discussion is relating specifically to your game ie: “I think this would work better in Unreal” “No it works fine in Unity” is perfectly fine so long as it stays along the lines of how each engine could benefit your game in particular.
Just because the dev was done talking about it does not mean everyone else has to be. What he decides is “useful” does not dictate what can and cannot be criticized. If someone still wished to express an opinion on a topic the dev doesn’t like, then they’re still perfectly within their rights to do so. They had a right to express their view on the game regardless of the devs feelings on the matter. Even with the dev deciding to rage quit, things were still mostly cordial. I see no reason why it couldn’t have continued that way. One of the healthiest ways to work out frustration is to talk things out in a calm rational manner. Which I believe was the path things were on until it was interrupted.
I will give my reasons for leaving here for everyone to see.
I started a new topic for a new game. It did not take long before the first negative comment about me using AI ticked in, which I’m fine with, and answered in my usual straight forward tone without being neither mean nor condescending ad far as I could see.
What happened after that was simply that comments kept coming that as said before was about the topic of AI use. It is not the first time something like this has happened on this site, and won’t be the last. That is also fine and dandy, but when I then tried to suggest people take their long form discussion about AI somewhere else to leave the topic to be about the game the messages instead kept on coming, and many of them are not exactly cordial. I also find an inability to follow such a simple request to be a sign that I just may be amongst people I don’t want to be amongst.
After looking at it happen for the nth time since I joined, I simply reached a point where I felt like being cordial is not part of the mantra for this forum anymore. People will say what they want to say. That does not mean I need to stick around to hear it. I will still check in on other creators I enjoy, as I wrote on my social media. But for me personally I don’t want to participate anymore.
Best wishes to all of you: the keyboard heroes, the debattants and people on both sides of the great AI divide. No hard feelings in any direction here. You keep doing you, and I’ll be doing me somewhere else
This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
“Bad thing already exists so stop complaining about bad thing” is a dumb argument.
Or, even better, take your negativity over to a more fitting site like Twitter and keep talking shit about other people’s games there.
Apologies to those I’m quoting (including one that I actually sympathized with overall), but I’d already seen enough when I started seeing remarks like these–and I didn’t even get to see the deleted posts, which apparently included some that were worse. If I had been in the position of a mod when I read those comments, I would have stepped in and asked people to stop then and there. (Maybe it would have even prevented you from making this topic, since it would have been hours before you tried to make your post.)
Again, I’m sorry that you didn’t get to have your say. Maybe I feel differently from you because I’m not the one who got silenced, but I just can’t imagine that that discussion would have done more good than harm.
And with that… I probably should stop going on and on about this point too.
Nope, it is not fine, because that would be a useless posts for developer and other people who came to read about project updates or discussion about project itself. If developer made game with certain game engine then he isn’t going to change game engine already. In “Steam” people create specific thread to discuss such things and if they try to make offtop comments in developers threads their comments going to be removed. Because the discussion is limited to one solid wall under project post on this weightgaming forum there shouldn’t be 20+ holywar comments where people discuss which game engine could fit better to this project. The same goes to AI discussion, because it is the same as game engine - I guess developer can’t switch from using AI. If someone decided to use AI in project that mean he can’t make such content without AI. So, every discussion about using or not using AI would be useless for developer, but there is different AI models and different AI tools which may fit better to project and discussion about that can help Developer to decide to switch to different model/AI tool to improve content quality. In short, I am in favor of removing anything that is useless for the development and improvement of the project. This will be useful for both the developer and the users of the game. The only people who will suffer are the ones who came to start useless chatter. Useless chatter should be in general discussion threads instead of game project threads.
I believe this is a perfectly reasonable position to have. If you aren’t liking the direction of a discussion it is a fine idea to pack your bags and leave. What I find objectionable is the attempts to silence the discussion of other users. Everyone deserves a chance to say their piece. Regardless of if it’s your 100th time hearing it it may be someone’s first time posting about it. I don’t believe they would mean any offense to you personally. The fact that your game utilizes AI means it will always be a topic of discussion. If you did not wish to have people criticize your use of AI all you have to do is not use it. You cannot both have AI without ignoring all criticism of it.
Edit: Sorry I realized I may have come off a bit rude here. I want to make clear that despite our difference of opinions on multiple things I am genuinely saddened that you feel as though you aren’t welcome here. I do believe you have a great talent for writing. Wishing you nothing but the best in your future endeavors.
With the exception of the last comment yes I would say this has been mostly cordial. And even then I would only qualify the last one as a little feisty. Nothing worth getting silenced over. Problems will often solve themselves if you allow people time to talk things out. Silencing discussion does nothing but let resentment fester, and it’ll be much worse when things come to a boil. People don’t need to be nannied all the time. Sometimes we just need to talk things out like civilized adults.
Again you may view this as useless but that’s not for you alone to decide. These posts may not be useful to you, but if they are on topic and not violating any other rules then there is no reason for them to be deleted. It is not useless chatter if it’s pertaining to any aspect of the game. Labeling something as “useless chatter” and demanding it be removed sounds like a very good way to crush any criticism that you don’t like. Which is exactly the situation we’re trying to avoid here. It is not a huge ask to scroll 5 inches lower down your screen to skip past stuff you don’t care about, but may be important to someone else. Regardless of whether you “can” or “can’t” change stuff the discussion is going to happen. And it would be unfair to silence those people based solely on your own opinion.
I personally think that the mod “posts after this will be deleted” should be made before posts start getting deleted, not three hours afterwards. Or at the very least if posts are getting deleted without any warning delete all of the off topic posts, not just start after some arbitrary point.
I just think it’s kinda crappy that the man spent a couple dozen or more hours working on a project and the first response it got was essentially ‘oh, I’m discarding the whole thing because of this one aspect’.
I don’t blame the guy for figuring this place isn’t for him anymore. Much like I wouldn’t blame anyone chancing across that thread to figure they probably just shouldn’t post their project at all.
We’re a small forum in a corner of the internet on an incredibly niche topic with a small amount of devs, overwhelming majority of which do this as a hobby, for fun, or they just want to share something they made for themselves.
Read the room a little, yknow?
If ai’s an issue you truly believe has to be campaigned against, there are more effective avenues to do so than on a weight-gain-game focused forum.
It’s use/non-use in this context does not shift the needle in anyway, and only really serves to upset people and push them out.
Yes it’s unfortunate that someone decided to leave the site over it but that should never stop people from sharing their honest opinions. Honest discussion is what drives the heart of any forum. The moment we start being fake with each other is when we’ve truly lost. If people expressing their honest opinions is enough to make you want to leave, then that’s very unfortunate, but I value the honesty of the forums over the opinion of a single dev.
