The silencing of dissenting opinions

Recently there has been a very unfortunate and unreasonable decision by the moderation team to quell any opposing thoughts and opinions. This quashing of free speech is not only unethical it is a detriment to the health of open discussion on these forums.

The moderation team has begun removing posts critical of games that use AI from their relevant threads. The given reason for the specific instance that I have born witness to is that the thread creator did not wish for an aspect of his game to receive criticism, claiming that if people continued to criticize this part then he would leave the forums. The moderation team has given in to his demands, and removed any posts attempting to discuss that aspect of his games with the stated intention to delete any further attempts at conversation. Allow me to illuminate for you why this is a terrible decision.

Let’s put ourselves in the shoes of Steam for a moment. In this scenario a publisher has just released a game on our store front. The game is generally well received but there are quite a number of reviews all complaining about the same thing. Microtransactions. The people are upset by the inclusion of these and wish to voice their frustrations and give feedback in the reviews and discussions. But the publisher doesn’t like this, not one bit! These negative reviews might make people not buy the game! And they don’t want these discussions on how they can “improve”. They just want to keep doing microtransactions without having people complain about them! Hm what to do? Aha! The publisher gets a delightfully devilish idea. They demand that Steam remove all negative reviews or discussions complaining about microtransactions. They say that if Steam doesn’t comply they they won’t upload any future games to the site. What a pickle indeed! What will dear Steam do in this scenario?

A.) They ignore the publishers demands and continue to allow for open critique and discourse. The people are allowed to freely express their experiences and opinions with one another. The reviews remain untampered with so people can get the full picture of the game. The feedback given may not only inform the publisher of how to improve, but will also provide help to potential future game devs. The publisher may keep their promise to leave the site, but perhaps they’ll return in the future with a better understanding of what they can improve upon. All is as it should be.

Or…

B.) They cave in to the publishers demands. Any reviews discussing microtransactions are ruthlessly purged. The forums are wiped clean of any conversation on the topic despite them not violating any rules. When users attempt to restart conversation or protest these decisions they are systematically silenced. The reviews are now all have only good things to say, but everyone can tell it is a shallow lie propped up by an unjust system. The forums are now an echo chamber of false positivity and ass-patting. Nothing can be gained from this desolate place. The publisher will learn nothing and continue on down their path of folly. Other devs will also gain nothing from perusing the games reviews, rather they may fall into the same mistakes now that only the partial truth remains. And worst of all, Steam will have lost the trust of the people.

It is to my great displeasure that WG seems to be following the latter path.
It is worth noting that the above does not only apply to games. Imagine if Amazon or Wal-Mart were doing the same. You shame yourselves by choosing the path of least resistance. By crushing the free discussion of games you are fostering a shallow and fake culture, where people are too afraid to truly speak their minds, and the quality of games will greatly suffer as a result.

The moderation team has also suggested that discussion of AI will still be allowed, but not on any threads where the OP requests not to. This is of course ridiculous. The feelings of the publisher should be irrelevant when it comes to discussing the quality of their product and giving feedback. Again this would be like if a game had microtransactions, but you’re not allowed to talk about them in the relevant thread because it hurts the publishers feelings. It is not “derailing the thread” if it is relevant to the game in question. And trying to force people into different areas to talk about controversial topics is how you end up dividing your userbase. Remember the downfall of SA? That’s the same path you’re heading down now.

Another improper reasoning given for the silencing of the people is that because someone else has already said it, then no one else is allowed to talk about it. This again is frankly asinine. Even discussing the same topic and in agreement on something, two people could have completely different views or reasonings. To say that because one person has already said something that there is nothing more to say and the discussion is over is ludicrous. If it was one person spamming the thread with the same thing over and over then maybe it would be justified to limit that persons posts. But these are completely different people expressing their individual opinions and they are being silenced for it. Everyone deserves to have a say.

In short nothing in the posts I have witnessed was in violation of any site rules. They were not derailing the thread nor were they overly hostile. They simply provided discourse and feedback on an aspect of the game they were unhappy with. The only thing these posts were guilty of was offending the dev, and for that they were unjustly punished. Therefore I can only conclude that there is a policy in place where if a publisher pity baits enough, then the moderators will kowtow to their whims.

I strongly implore you to stray from this course of action. It will bring rot and decay to the site in the long term as discussions will stagnate and games will cease to improve. Community input will be minimalized in favor of circlejerks where only the most devout yes-men will get a say. I would also like to see any posts deleted because of this policy restored, as that would be the just thing to do. It is imperative to the integrity of this site that this happen as soon as possible. For the sake of both developers and the general audience.

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For the sake of clarity I will also be posting my comment that was originally deleted. I know for a fact there were others. But as you can see there is nothing rule violating in this post.
Original follows:

No matter your feelings on a topic, trying to silence dissenting opinions is never a good idea. People are allowed to discuss what they don’t like about a project, and trying to squash that with “I’ll leave if people keep bringing up this thing I don’t like” is in extremely poor taste. AI is a very touchy subject, and by choosing to engage with it means you accept all the good and bad aspects of it. On the plus side you get art for your game, but you also get criticisms from people that take issue with that. You can’t have one without the other. The whole point of these discussion forums is to discuss things. If the dev doesn’t want to deal with negative reactions to his practices, then he is free to not post his games here at the cost of not having the positive reactions either. You have to take the good with the bad.

I myself have very mixed opinions on AI. On the one hand it’s a very useful tool to those that don’t have the means to hire an artist but still want to get their ideas out into the world. It’s a valuable asset to those who would otherwise be unable to contribute their ideas. On the other hand, it is extremely exploitative of actual artists. It steals their work and is very unfair to those who have put in actual time and talent into mastering their craft. My personal “ethical” view of this is that if you’re going to use AI for your project it should be completely non-profit (not charging for it, or submitting it to a gain-jam with cash rewards) as it would be disrespectful to profit off of stolen work, not to mention unfair to everyone else. This way you can still get your ideas out there and attract interest for future work while remaining respectful to the actual artists out there.

Regardless of my own opinions, the final point is that using AI is going to generate discourse no matter where you go. So if you use it and are profiting off of it then you have to be prepared to take the negative backlash.

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I understand what you’re saying and for someone who is not aware of what comments were removed or how many of them. I can understand that you might infer your “sides” opinion is being oppressed.

However, there were no silencing of opinions. The topic is about a game that features AI. Masturb...chat For twenty comments there were debates about the use of AI. Arguing for or against the use of AI in a topic that features AI. More than twenty comments about the same off topic issue does nothing further than to derail the topic even further. If the topic was about the use of AI and the discussion was civil there would be no need to moderate anything. However, the topic was for a project being developed that use AI images.

The fact that the discussion was allow to go on for as long as it did and that there are comments “on both sides” that are left up should give you an idea that the problem is not the content being said but the fact that it was still going on. We remove off topic comments all the time. And as I stated if a topic on the matter is made as long as it falls within our community guidelines and remains civil there would be no issue.

The fact of it being AI is not different than if it was another medium or source of off topic. While I don’t like to shut down healthy discussion the fact of the matter is people get charged about the topic of AI and allowing further discussion in that thread only hurts user experience for someone coming to get info and have discussions about the game at hand.

The reason your comment specifically was being removed when you kept re pasting it multiple times was because I was in the middle of addressing the issue directly to ask for a stop of further off topic discussion, as I did not have time to do it earlier since this morning. And as such I had been removing any further comments on the AI debate in that game topic since this morning.

I appreciate you taking the time to make a thread on the matter and hope you can understand the issue at hand.

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I very much dislike AI as well, but I don’t think the talk about “make it non-profit if it has AI art” has merit. Art is not the only aspect of a product be it a game or a comic; writing is also just as important. You may be well versed in one but lack any ability in the other and that is when AI comes in handy. You are still putting in the hours, thinking it should be all unpaid labor makes no sense to me.
I’ll add that I myself write and use 3d software to make comics, so I’m absolutely NOT advocating for the use of AI, I want to make it clear that I don’t like it, but that is also only my personal preference.

If respectful discourse and sharing of opinion is being shut down on this site however, that is indeed worrisome

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We encourage open discussion for both sides of AI generated content in game and in general it is our policy to not shut down any discussion as long as it does not violate our ToS or Rules even if it may be critical of us or if we may or may not disagree with the content.

Its always been our belief that we should not get in the way of open discussion as long as all parties involved are being respectful to each other.

If you feel our moderation team has been unfairly targeting certain opinions we do take that very seriously and would be happy to review any posts that you feel have been wrongly removed.

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I heavily disagree. For one the conversation on the use of AI as relating to its use in a creators game is not “off topic”. At least I very much do not believe it to be. AI is used in the game, therefore discussion pertaining to the use of AI is by definition not off topic. If someone had just brought up AI unrelated to anything else in the thread then yes that would be off topic. But the discussion from what I have witnessed has all centered around the specific use of AI as it relates to this game. Why should a conversation be destroyed because it goes on for too long? That means healthy discussion is being fostered. The thought that there are multiple other occasions where strings of comments have been deleted because the discussion has gone on “too long” is very alarming to me, and I worry for the future of these forums if that is the prevailing mindset going forwards.

I also highly disagree that the distribution of comments left up is equal in terms of “sides”. For one there is a very clear bias at hand. And two it should not be a half measure. If you’re going to delete some posts pertaining to a discussion then you either need to delete all of them or none of them. Leaving only some up is just going to tempt more people to reply and it unfairly targets some users above others. It is curious however that you believe me to be “taking a side” when my comment was fairly neutral in terms of the AI debate. My main point was that a certain user was attempting to shame another for voicing their opinion which I believe to to be unacceptable. As for the discussions length please see my previous posts section on why just because one person has said it that doesn’t mean others don’t have the right to also express the same thing.

I believe that the main factor of this issue comes down to wanting to protect an individual developers feelings above promoting fair and unencumbered discussion. Lets suppose I’m a game dev who has posted multiple games that all contain something absolutely horrible. Lets say a whole lot of gore for example. And I get a lot of comments every upload saying that the rest of the game is nice but they all hate the gore. Eventually on my latest upload I get sick of this and say that if one more person criticizes my game because of gore then I’m going to leave the forums. But people continue to post about it anyways. What does the moderation team do in that situation? The discussion of gore is on topic for the thread as the game does contain vast amounts of it. Everything else is in line with the rules. Is it really just a matter of length? If so where do you draw the line for when a discussion has gone on for too long? What’s the specific number of posts? And why delete only some and not all?

Can you see why this is confusing to me? The only reasonable conclusion I’m able to draw is that this is being done to protect the feelings of the developer. Which should not be the case. A dev should not be able to decide “I’m tired of hearing this criticism of my work so I demand the mods censor any further discussion from everyone else.” That is insane.

The reason I kept reposting my comment is because I believed its deletion to be an error. I made a good faith assumption that either the site or my internet was having issues. I believed there was no way the staff would be silencing people like this. I apologize for being so naĂŻve.

I would ask you to take all I have said into consideration for the future and would also again request that the deleted comments be restored. Thank you for your time.

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This is my own post that I believe has been unjustly targeted.

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Bruh I’m just trying to enjoy some belly, I don’t wanna read no PhD thesis

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I don’t wish to be doing this either but unfortunately it’s an issue that needs addressing. You’re in luck though, because I do believe that there are a number of other threads here that may be right up your ally!

Again as stated to you. It was never about content of post but the fact that it was still occurring. I was in the middle of typing and asking for further discussion on the matter to stop. In order to avoid further responses to some users being replied to while I was typing I removed the post and one other at the time of responding to the thread.

If anyone wants to have a discussion about AI’s use in game that’s fine. But a topic should be created for this. The game’s topic was just started and almost immediately the inclusion of AI being used was criticized, which then prompted many following opinions on the matter.

If a user is using the unity engine and some users have issue with this and decide to address it and it devolves into a debate about the uses of unity, is this healthy for a topic about a specific project? You could view it as okay but how long should the conversation go? It’s not about the specific game anymore it’s about the ethics of using the engine that’s being addressed.

This is why it was off topic and removed. Not because of the content provided within. As any further comment was being removed about the include of AI’s use within the specific project while asking for users to take the discussion to other parts of the forum if it should continue.

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It seems to me that the steam point is moot. Billion dollar corps and single devs or small teams are in no way comparable to it. AI is a tool, nothing more, nothing less, the same way that hammers are. A hammer can be used to create or destroy. It depends on the person wielding it. AI is the same. These small devs are doing no harm, they are using the limited resources at their disposal to make their games better. Not everyone can write, draw, code, and all the rest, and why should those people be locked out of a hobby when the means to make it happen are at their disposal?

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As as for the rest of it, I believe you were shut down not because of your “dissenting opinion” but because you started personally insulting people. And anyway, there isn’t a single AI project in the finals for gain jam, so they aren’t exactly being shown favoritism, if anything it’s the opposite. Whether that’s right or wrong isn’t for me to say, as I don’t really believe the is a “Correct” answer to the AI question, it’s all contextual, but that is what it is.

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While missing some of the context I agree with @Krodmandoon at the moment. If these actions where to quell a fire or because it was taking the topic off from what the OP wanted it to be about, it would be justified for the mod to preserve the peace and make sure discussion stays organized.

I would encourage to instead make a topic about this and your views in General Discussion if you would like to discuss it. As @Krodmandoon has stated his intent was not to silence you but to ensure the original topic was not getting out of hand. Thus choosing to make a dedicated topic for it is acceptable as long as you stay within our our ToS and Rules.

If you disagree with this assessment feel free to DM me and would be happy to open up a larger discussion between you, myself and @Krodmandoon.

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Damn, you were insulting people? Not cool big fella

As an aside, but a relevant one, your posts are too long. If you want people to read what you say, meet them halfway and make you point clear and (more) brief.

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I suppose it ultimately comes down to a matter of opinion then. In your example with Unity I would say yes it can absolutely be discussed. If unity is the engine being used for the game then I would say that discussion of the use of unity as it pertains to the game is very fair and a valid point of discussion. I also don’t believe the length of the conversation to be an issue. I don’t think there are post limits for threads, and other users are free to have other conversations. So this discussion about a specific aspect of the game isn’t harming anything and (from my view) is in line with the rules.

So I suppose we’re just at a difference of opinion. I truly believe that what I posted wasn’t off-topic and was very much related to the game. As such I would still very much like to have my comment restored. If you still think otherwise then I’ll respect your opinion. But I would urge you to reconsider taking this course of action in the future as it is incredibly stifling to discussion and bad for the forums as a whole.

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Figured I should weigh in on this because I was somewhat involved with the inciting comment.

Right off the bat, I already think this topic is a little silly on its face due to the fact that the Free Speech Manifesto is being written in response to a single reply having been deleted in the comments of a $1 game on a niche fetish forum. I don’t mean to be reductive, but this entire argument has been wildly blown out of proportion considering how mundane the “incident” was.

And before you say that there was more than one “dissenting opinion” that was deleted, I would disagree. There was a single other user who had their replies deleted several times, presumably in part because their response had attacked my character. While I don’t personally care and I honestly would’ve welcomed the chance to respond to them, that kind of thing is very clearly against the forum rules.

As someone else stated above, the entire argument here is making a mountain out of a mole hill. Comparing literally the biggest game marketplace in the entire world and publishing companies that have thousands of employees and billions of dollars of backing to solo devs making fetish games is completely nonsensical.

Respectfully, I understand where you’re coming from, but I think that proclaiming all of these massive statements about “the future of the forums” is a little ridiculous. Moderation has been handled pretty similarly on the forums for years, and I don’t really see the “desolate place” that you’re so insistent is inevitable because of it. Like, I can respect the verbosity, but I don’t know if there’s really a need to drop an essay full of various charged words to make some grand claim about, ultimately, a relatively insignificant situation.

At the end of the day, I think the entire situation boils down to respect. The forums aren’t such a positive place because the mods “suppress healthy discussion,” it’s because the culture here is largely built on respecting one another. If a soulless corporation asked me to stop insulting their evil business practices, obviously I would tell them to eat shit. But when an honest dev who is primarily driven by passion asks me to respect their wishes and stop filling their thread with comments on a very controversial subject, it’s simply the right thing to do to acknowledge and accept their wishes.

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I have not insulted anyone. My point is that another user was shaming another for expressing an opinion. I may come across as harsh but I have not insulted anyone.

I don’t believe your properly understood the point of the Steam allegory. I never talked about steam using AI. I was using an possible scenario to highlight how disingenuous it would be for Steam to suppress an aspect of a games discussion as is what has happened here tonight. I also only brought up the jam in passing. I think you have missed the main point.

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If you dont wish to read long posts thats your choice but i dont think that if a point someone is trying to make takes a couple paragraphs that it should have to be condensed.

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I’m not sure if you might of misunderstood what I said, at least partially, but I was indicating if a game topic developed into a discussion about the ethics of using the Unity engine. While yes the game would use unity by this example getting into a debate about if it’s okay or not to use the engine because of factors that don’t pertain to the game itself doesn’t feel on-topic to me. But again it was a perhaps poorly worded hypothetical. And yes it could come up as a difference of opinion.

However, my responsibility is to help maintain the atmosphere of the site, threads, users, posts, and keep thing’s within our community guidelines and ToS. Part of those guidelines are keeping posts on topic. And a debate about the ethics of AI within a game topic doesn’t feel like the place that discussion should be happening.

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