That is a very slippery slope. Where do you draw the line of how far off site the moderation has to go? Is weightgaming responsible for moderating what user does and says on other sites? Should we also have admins ask for access to users social media accounts to see if every user is the type of person who does or says shady shit else where on the internet, to ban user based on their activity elsewhere? Where does this line of thinking even stop?
Wait so the illegal version is still up?
If this is true, yeah, I canât at all agree to that person even being allowed on the site. I feel this very clearly crosses the line. My understanding was that the staff reasoned with him and that he stopped all the offensive behavior and removed ALL the content, on-site or off-site because he just didnât understand that isnât okay.
Simply having a game that illegally uses images of real women without their consent and not immediately fixing it should be on the level of being a p#do in my opinion. Doesnât matter if youâre a p#do on-site or off-site. Permaban.
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1 drop rule. Why? Because there are really only 2 groups of people on this issue that represent like 90% of people from what Iâve seen. We donât need to cater to every single person. Remove every known trace of AI from your project and itâs good.
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People who hate AI and will not even touch something if it uses AI because any sort of AI use is supporting highly immoral and illegal software. The more games that use it, the more it is normalized, and that is disgusting.
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People who donât hate AI, though they generally have between a mild to moderate distaste for it and would prefer non-AI but if the game looks good then they play.
To satisfy both types, you simply need a 1 drop rule to satisfy the first case. The second case can do whatever. However, there is the issue that most people are of group 1, and that tag blocking is an obscure feature. Group 2 also generally has a dislike of AI, so they wouldnât be losing out on much in a hypothetical âAI is opt-inâ situation.
I think a full AI ban would be best, but staff can set default preferences to have AI muted Iâm pretty sure.
This may be a slight miss representation, it took less than 24 ours for the initial cleanup weightgaming with the link to a âscrubedâ version, and many deleted posts.
It took 9 days to hear on why he was not banned after members of the community went out of their way with google image search and searching the users off site profiles for more bad behavior, to get a response from moderators on why the user had not been banned. After more was turned up off site.
âThe moderationâ doesnât have to go anywhere. They donât need access to anything. Itâs quite simple.
Someone comes and says âHey, isnât this the guy who made that game where youâre a N### in the H######## and kill J##### people?â Moderators investigate the claim. Guy is banned if guilty. Problem solved.
This form of moderation exists almost EVERYWHERE. P#do but the only evidence is Twitter? Banned. Advocated for girls to be Râd on Reddit? Banned. Convicted sex criminal? Banned. No one wants people like that here.
Yes, if itâs brought to the communityâs attention, 100% yes.
Itâs called the slippery slope FALLACY for a reason. We want to implement a policy that certain off-site actions are considered bannable offenses. No one is calling for every single rule to apply to every single corner of the internet. By this logic, you could say any form of moderation is a slippery slope leading to everything everywhere being censored.
Weâre all reasonable adults here. We can set clear boundaries and judge what off-site behavior is considered bannable.
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Yes, I followed the same criteria. I found 17 in total just then, not counting ones that didnât tag themselves as AI. While itâs still not a huge number, your count brought the conversation further away from reality.
The cubfurs and lolicons complaining on bbwchan are not going to come back if we defend lax moderation, thereâs no sense defending lax moderation on areas that not only have legal ramifications, but actively damage the (already very questionable) reputation of the feederism community, let alone anyone that prefers only considering such fetishes strictly in the abstract.
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AI could be used to make things better, but from what Iâve seen people are just using it as a crutch(or just making it make everything in the game), but I will state that there was already a problem with an excessive amount of visual novels on this site to begin with.
To expand on what I meant by AI being used to make things better, either a finishing touch sort of thing(like lossless resizing, shading assistance, and filters to name a few), or as a rough draft to help out those that canât get an idea down well enough on their own(such as helping with descriptions of a character with visual representation of what youâve written to get it right, or for people who have aphantasia and need a little help translating what someoneâs talking about in a project)
But as I have said before, instead of using it responsibly, people have just been using it to slap together something that they can sell.
As was stated earlier, it can be used to enhance a project, like with Fatoclysm, but it is rarely used as such.
This is just my two cents, but having AI getting their own section wouldnât be a bad idea.
As for the BBWchan matter, itâs a unrelated issue, just a website people can post images and bitch about things, and doesnât really have any place in the current conversation.
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Donât blame the genre, blame the devs. The most accessible game engines for the new dev interested in fetish games are renâpy and rpgmaker so of course, the most common games will be VNs and JRPGs. That said, I think it is worth encouraging anyone willing to be more experimental or diverse in their game design.
That was partly why I pointed to hosting dev team meeting rooms within the forum as a potential benefit of shifting off Discourse and back to a more traditional webforum platform. We have many, many people that try to make a game on their own and give up due to how hard it is to be a solo dev. The more we do to encourage dev teams and give said teams good advice at the beginning of projects, the better.
Discord can be a place to get advice, but discord has both mounting privacy problems and isnât as reliable as a webforum for hosting useful information that you donât want to keep repeating every 5 minutes.
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Aimi has already voiced pretty much exactly what I would have responded with, but just a couple extra points. Are you really saying youâd support anyone with any shady background posting here simply because they didnât break any rules specifically on this site? Thatâs not how any responsible moderation team operates, on any website.
If you mean clicking on the guyâs Itch profile that he linked in his own post, thatâs hardly âout of their way.â Thatâs the first thing anyone does if they what to see what else a developer has made. Unless you happen to have some super secret sauce, in which case, proof please.
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I think it is really silly to assume most people are in group 1, as most people have nuanced opinions of AI and will try any game that appears and then judge it stand-alone. A minority of people that abhor AI will avoid it, sure. Just as I abhor vore and avoid it and think its âinsert bad thing hereâ and shouldnât be allowed, cut me off there right? People are allowed to be picky, so let there be more options so everyone can have fun, because I do believe projects assisted by AI can be and are fun. If that means sectioning AI assisted games into their own box to make it more easily avoidable, I think thatâs fine, though I also think the current tagging system also works fine since I can just scroll past things tagged vore.
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No, unacceptable behavior is unacceptable behavior. However i am simply asking where the line your proposing is in the sand. What is to far, what is not?
When is someone not in effect doxxing another other online identities for the purpose of crusading against something they donât like or approve of?
It isnât just an assumption. Iâve met a lot of people on this forum and community in general. The VAST majority are completely against AI. Even more so than me. Canât even post a funny gif if it involves an AI image. (I donât care when itâs used for memes or just messing around, and I openly stated that I did play and enjoy an AI game in one of my posts.)
I wouldnât expect someone with an AI image as their profile picture to understand. Itâs extremely unethical to use AI in its current form. There is no valid comparison to vore. Vore doesnât harm anyone. AI does. The only people who defend the use of AI, not just opposing its outright ban, are a tiny but loud minority that usually just end up getting angry and leaving.
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I would say we should set rules for off-site behavior, only banning if violated. For example:
- Hate speech
- Grifting/scams
- Illegal content
- Games that violate forum rules
- I donât see any case off the top of my head where this might need some exceptions but there is a pretty fair chance a couple exceptions might need to be made.
Doxxing doesnât apply to other online identities. Doxxing is the exposure of sensitive non-publicly available personal information, as in address, real name, phone number, email, etc. If it is truly sensitive information, such as a Twitter account with their real name on it, which isnât directly linked to, then it can be reported to staff privately.
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I would say stealing photos of women and putting them in a porn game without their consent is a pretty clear example of unacceptable behaviour. It was enough to get removed from this site initially, surely the same should apply if it gets reuploaded by the same developer elsewhere.
Moderators donât need to actively investigate every userâs account and their possible other accounts on other websites, they just need to investigate concerns as they are brought up. Thatâs why I made those extreme hypotheticals. Using Grotâs logic, someone could make a game with paedophilic content, upload it to some scum of the earth website where it wouldnât be taken down, then release a watered-down version of the same game here and face zero consequences.
I sincerely hope and believe that should such an extreme case happen here the admins would quickly ban that person, but with Grotâs statement thatâs now up for debate, and we donât know what the admins consider to be too far anymore. There needs to be a firm stance on what is and isnât acceptable, not just some wishy-washy "well, technically" excuse if on-site rules arenât broken.
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This is a very convenient moral distinction, so you would not mind your AimilsFat profile being publicly linked to your meta/x/google profile? They are two online identities.
Im fairly sure i can go find hate speech of some form or anther on more than 25% of users other social media. What qualifies as hate speech? This is very borad. Is there any linency for bad behavior that has been corrected, and si not repeated, or does someone just have to link to the single post, and your banned?
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i personally find anti-ai whingeing to be just as annoying as slop-slinging.
people do not make good, solid, honest representations of their cause when attempting to critique it. most of the conversation around it is reactionary (only caring about the phenomenon, and the supposed threat to the artisan class, not the material causes that give rise to it) and is usually followed by loads of toxic, ableist, reactionary, and at times transphobic rhetoric (such as the misgendering and/or sexual harassment of transfeminine ai artists.)
the site and communities problems are broader than any one new, increasingly popular corner-cutting method, though itâs difficult for me to elaborate further without clearly tripping over the âpolitics-free-zoneâ attitude the staff frequently takes (which is, itself, a pretty sizeable issue of the staff/site culture.)
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Wanted to post here cause this matters to me. Havenât read all the replies yet so Iâll surely repeat some of whats already been said but here goes.
AI should be cordoned off, itâs corrosive to quality work. Iâm not perfect Iâve played some games with AI in them and there are some games I didnât even notice had AI untill it was pointed out. People can put work in on AI projects and make a decent game. Not every game made with it is a cash grab but itâs still harmful to creative works.
It floods the project section with low quality slop, Iâd much rather a short rpgmaker game or a half finished text adventure then 30 âGround breakingâ new visual novels a month.
Iâve wanted to make a game for years but I havenât got the skills for it. Thatâs not a valid reason to go to a bot imput a style of an artist I like and rip it.
Ignoring AI though (and I donât think we should but for the sake of conversation) This is a great site that I would be heart broken to see go down, I remember when the site got nuked and how much just went up in smoke.
People that show up with clearly bad intentions should be checked, you donât gotta ban hammer them off the bat but online communities are only as good as there moderation. There are always going to be bad actors and people that try and skirt the rules to make a quick buck off people that make the mistake of trusting them to follow through on what they promise.
Obviously nobody wants to see people getting banned at the first small infraction but if the site doesnât take steps to protect itself and itâs users. And keep the site a good experience it will die a slow drawn out death. Personally I check in MUCH less than I used to and a lot of that has to do with the site not feeling how it used to.
There was a time I could say I had respect for almost every project in the project tab. Even the unfinished and abandoned ones because the effort to even try was respectable but it gets to a point where the project tab is just over crowded, We have an archive section.
The site could be much cleaner. Move projects that havenât been touched for over a year to the archive and let the new and active works stand out so creators can build an audience and get support instead of being just one post in an ever growing list that you know most arenât worth looking at.
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This is why I donât have any of those, SFW or NSFW. Google included. This and Discord are my only social media, and I donât mind you linking my Discord, which I can publicly say the username is aimi.moe if youâd like a demonstration.
If itâs an SFW account, I would consider that enough of a âsensitive non-publicly available personal informationâ situation to warrant simply reporting it to staff.
Up to staff on that one. Itâs been shown that âfuzzyâ rules lead to better moderation, whereas tightly defined rules often lead to lots of loopholes like weâre currently experiencing. But like, 25%? Really? I would say itâs more like 5% and I would gladly have them all removed, but that isnât what weâre talking about. Staff arenât just going to ban immediately without questioning the poster, especially if itâs old edgy stuff from when they were like 16.
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âWhat qualifies as hate speech?â Could be the wildest and poorest defense Iâve seen in a long time. There are ways to moderate content without going too far and we arenât even close to that right now.
I understand you want to defend the site, people are here because they love the site and want to see it improve. Please stop, before you embarrass yourself further, this is going nowhere.
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