The slippery slope of site enshitification

After having taken some time to read over the concerns and issues brought up by people in the thread, alongside my own history with the site, I feel like it’s appropriate for me to weigh in on the topic.

It’s only natural that people would take the integrity and quality of a place that allows them to share their passions very seriously, of course. While I only rarely participate in active communication myself (and only relatively recently made an account compared to my active time using and browsing the site), I’ve been able to bear witness to the development of the culture and practices that take place on it. With that in mind, it’s good to remember that it’s a shared passion, and everyone here agrees on the same central point of wanting to maintain that community and quality.

Generally speaking, I believe the primary issue that ties all the discourse together has less to do with the methods by which games are created, and more to do with the quality and intent of the games being created. Everyone is clearly passionate about the community that has sprung up over the course of the last few years, since previously it was a very fractured and disparate collection of people all working on projects that could spread only by word of mouth or through their own pockets of community. Passion like that comes with a pride in the work they produce and consume, and seeing people use their passion as a means for exploitation will of course create strong emotions.

With that in mind however, I do believe that the issue is more multi-faceted than it is one focused attack being made on the site.

For starters, I believe that the majority (Not all, which I’ll address shortly) of projects using AI are simply people who lack the resources or ability to create pieces of content that they believe would be integral towards creating their vision for a finished product. As anyone who has ever tried knows, even the simplest of tools for game development take an exceptional amount of time and effort to utilize. If people decide that using certain resources would allow them to complete their project more efficiently, I see no issue with it being used in appropriate contexts.

This does not extend to a project with the intent of making a profit, however. A hobby that gains no income from the effort being expended by the person investing their time is not subject to the same standards of professionalism I would expect from a paid project. If a project is being sold and not freely distributed, then there is no excuse for a person to not invest that money into paying an artist or developer to create the resources necessary to avoid the use of generative tools. Whether or not you argue that without those resources it would not be viable for sale is a factor you should consider when making that initial investment of time.

As to whether or not AI should be included at all, I would personally follow in the recommendations of others and make a more stringent policy towards separating AI content from non-AI content within its own category. While the moderation team may only be so many people, it’s been proven that people are more than willing to assist and report these projects so that they can be handled when time is available to the moderation team. As I mentioned earlier however, this does not extend to paid projects, which I believe should be barred from the use of AI whenever possible, to disincentivize the proliferation of scam projects.

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again a convinent self distinction since the rule does not affect me i dont have a problem with it. Im ok outing other since im already out?

Really yet someone is the butt of every joke meaning someone outther will problably find any joke you said hatefull, regardless of your intentions. Who is the arbiter of what jokes are and are not acceptable, based on who they do or do not make fun of?

My question of what is hate speach is really asking Where are your moral lines of what is and is not hatefull? There is no way that we all have the same one, so i think “What qualifies as hate speach?” is a fair question.

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Yes, I’m okay with that. There’s no “outing” here. I already addressed SFW accounts. If you commit hate speech, make a scam game, or otherwise do something vile, then screw you, get banned.

If there’s a single case of something bad happening as a result of posting someone’s non-SFW Twitter, cite it. Send the exact post it happened. Sure, you can make up a hypothetical, but unless that’s a real issue that occurs, hypotheticals have no weight here.

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Okay @moonslashx got a little too aggressive there for their post to not get deleted but that kinda summarized it all really easily. Please do the usual thing they allow you to do and edit your post to tone it down a little so later posters can read. That addressed it way better than I did.

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See? Moderators decided my post went too far and was thus removed. That arbitration is how Moderators work.

If they actually enforced more things people cared about, this thread would not exist.

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ok but is the whole point of this thread that there are those of us here that DONT agree with the moderators decisions, i believe most of the rules suggested are already rules to some extent. Yet here we have an entire thread dedicated to more clearly defining them and placing some definitions on what the moderators should do for punishments.

If your example and statements are true then there is no need for this thread, i can stop posting and you can stop reading.

Do you often walk into conversations with large groups of people that don’t agree with you and come out thinking you’re actually the correct one?

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Staff only have power given to them by the rules. You can’t ban someone for being a sex offender, for example, if there is no reasonable interpretation of the rules saying that it is not allowed. That is the reason most of us are here today. We want a change in rules.

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You’re doing a great job at conveniently ignoring key parts of everyone’s arguments.

That was answered 2 sentences after the part you quoted: "If it is truly sensitive information, such as a Twitter account with their real name on it, which isn’t directly linked to, then it can be reported to staff privately."

You got a reply, then decided not to acknowledge it: "Up to staff on that one."

Yeah moonslashx answered that way better than I ever could.

You’ve got to be trolling at this point. "If they actually enforced more things people cared about, this thread would not exist."
The answer is in the very sentence you’re trying to dispute. One comment being removed doesn’t suddenly mean the entire moderation process is perfect.

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I think we’ve explained our points well enough by this point. No need to get every single person on your side.

Would anyone like to quit arguing this singular person disagreeing and suggest a list of actionable policy changes for the staff to use before they close this thread for getting too argumentative?

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Agreed, happy to ignore them. Also happy to repost the list of things talked about in this topic, since I think there are truly multiple things to address at this point if that helps.

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Good job quoting me out of a clear response to someone else and not you and acting like i ignored your answer!

Yet you yourself are complaining about the stafss distinction of many of the rules. Menwhile im trying to get to the bottom of what everyones distictions are.

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At the time Discourse was probably the only viable solution but Xenforo has improved in the time between and works pretty well on mobile. We aren’t really getting much use out of the real-time features that set Discourse apart and from my understanding the system requirements are higher. So switching could save money.

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In the spirit of ignoring that guy and getting things back on track, here’s a list (possibly not a complete list) of things I previously observed as issues. There’s also a topic here discussing possible rules to avoid shovelware: Ideas for rules that would discourage shovelware/grifting

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(Rhetorical) Question for you; why isn’t this information public so the paranoid among us can’t invent villains and spread playground rumors? I think that Johnny-3-Posts should know as much about the situation as someone who spends too much time on discord.

Never happened. Not even a “we’re actually worried about bregrading and so will have to cancel the postmortem to protect others privacy.” or “we didn’t have enough staff to effectively address this apply today!”

At least for people who don’t live in discord there is a concerning appearance of the staff simply avoiding hard decisions. Communication is important , we’re all regular people who understand everyone is just trying to do the best job they can. Give everyone the ability to give you the benefit of the doubt and not have to imagine what could have happened.

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I will separate this into two lists, my personal changes I would like but most of which are not likely to be done, at least in the short term, so more of a long-term goal once people want change once again, and a short-term realistic policy change list which is more of a compromise which isn’t so controversial.

I expect neither list to be fully implemented, but if we even get a majority of the compromise policy list done, that would be a great achievement.

My “evil” “radical” agenda >:)

  • Issue an announcement apologizing for mismanagement, whether or not you actually did anything malicious. You want to earn people’s faith back so they can trust you in the future.

  • Ban AI in this announcement to show people you really are making huge and popular changes. At the very minimum, you get a huge boost in faith and morale from the anti-AI crowd, a very large portion of the forum, especially of the active portion of the forum, who will at least help defend you if more drama starts. A lot of people will not know why AI is so bad, so at least have a short section on why and how AI use negatively impacts this forum and the world as a whole, and how this will make things better for the common viewer.

    • You’ll probably get assaulted in the comments by the pro-AI crowd. Just remember they’re a small but loud minority. Or turn off comments. Either way works.
  • Mention the main site, your plans, current progress, and that you’re going to be working harder to get it done. Everyone’s having trouble browsing in the current format. This will massively bring up morale and trust if they know you’re working on a main site. Also, maybe take some inspiration from https://www.incrementaldb.com/. It fits a little better than itch.io since it is a smaller website and only links to games instead of actually hosting them.

  • Rule overhaul including the off-site behavior stuff that was mentioned previously.

  • Perhaps open-source the main site. We are a community full of programmers, UI designers, and more. I and many others would be glad to help you create it.

The Compromise List

  • The apology as mentioned before. Very important to try to rebuild faith when many people seem to be very upset.

  • Mention that you’ll be separating AI into a separate category.

  • Main site mention, same as before.

  • Off-site behavior added to rules, at least to a degree.

  • Get the rose guy off. He’s still linking to the demo of a game where the full version includes illegal and highly immoral content. That should be more than enough justification alongside the community hate. Probably mention this in the apology as well to restore some more faith. You need more than just words to convince people.

  • The open-sourcing of the main site, as mentioned before, would be a seriously good idea, especially since you mentioned “The last few years and the beginning of this year have been hell on my scheduled and the amount of time I can dedicate to things has been really constrained.” Far easier to maintain a repository than do everything yourself.

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I dont want to cut it off, but it is a simple answer on my side and its just time.

The last few years and the beginning of this year have been hell on my scheduled and the amount of time I can dedicate to things has been really constrained. Its also the reason I don’t have the yearly financial statements out yet.

It doesn’t excuse the fact I have been failing in that aspect though.

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Without going too into the weeds and derailing this into a Jam discussion thread, I will just concede the point in that you’re right, it was my own failing that I had let this slide.

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That’s reasonable; like I said we’re all people doing our best.

The obvious question is then “is it time to get more moderators?” Lots of passionate people in this thread who care about the quality of your web site.

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Updated this if anyone wants to read the second list now.

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