Quick Update on the Forums

Good day everyone!

I wanted to give you all a quick update on the progress of reopening the forums. So far we are on track for reopening the Projects category. This weekend @Krodmandoon and I were able to finish up our discussions on our rule and procedure changes as well as reviewing a few things that fell through the cracks moderation wise.

I am currently working on taking what we discussed and using them to revamp our rules; while @Krodmandoon has been working on cleaning up the Projects category. As part of the cleanup, some projects may end up being moved to Archive or other areas where they may be more appropriate (General Games > Mods for example). If you are the dev of one of these projects and feel we have made a mistake with where it was moved or its archiving reach back out to us after we reopen the Projects later this month and we can look at restoring your project or moving it back into Projects.

Once I am finished with the rules and procedures on my side and we have the new mods up to speed on how things are going to work from now on I will be making a post detailing all the major changes so everyone is in the loop. So keep an eye out for that later this month.

Thank you all for your patience with me so far! It has been much appreciated.

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Why are we mass archiving games with updates as recently as 9 days ago? Genuinely I’d like to know how that improves the community here.

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We are currently working on trying to clean up the Projects category of projects where the dev posted a concept but never ended up going anywhere. Due to the number of projects we are mainly looking at projects with no publicly available links to their games or with users who have not been very active on the site in a long period of time,

We know its a big net though and we are expecting to get some projects that are mainly distributing builds through discord or are just being developed fairly slowly. After we reopen the Projects category any devs who had their projects incorrectly archived can contact us and we can restore it. We are already in content with a few of the devs already and they are aware and waiting for us to open it back up.

So to tldr; it we are just focusing on trying to get everything cleaned up as fast as possible and we plan on correcting the mistakes after that. Luckily, any mistakes we make will only be in archive for a few weeks at most.

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with not publicly available links to their games or with users who have not been very active on the site in a long period of time

could you at least try?
some of the projects that have been getting archived have had their devs post progress updates this month

some examples,

Pkmn Island Oasis: A weight and muscle gain Pkmn Game

last post from dev - nine days ago
has made continual and constant updates

Maddie June and the Bursting Mansion

last post from dev - 25 days ago

Side Game: The Architects Dungeon

last post from dev - february 11th.

that aside, i feel “not active for a long time” isnt that good of a metric.
some devs just dont work on their projects for a long time, some people lose passion and regain it later, others just have life get in the way for a bit.
arbitrarily archiving threads like this only says “its a bad idea to post here, we could decide to close your thread because you had an IRL emergency and couldnt post for a week”

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I understand how you may feel but please keep in mind it’s really only one person who is having to review all +1000 projects atm. @Krodmandoon has been doing an amazing job so far allowing me to focus on the rule updates and getting the new mods onboarded.

I’m not saying that some like you posted may have been mistakes but to understand we are favoring speed over accuracy ATM so we can reopen the Projects category as soon as possible.

And if you are one of the devs that haven’t reached out to us yet please do so once we reopen and we will get your project corrected as soon as possible.

you dont need to archive hundreds of old threads to reopen projects.
nobody was asking you to do that, nobody wanted you to do that.
all you’re doing is giving disgruntled devs more reasons to say “fuck this” and make their own weight gaming.
edit: and another thing i’d like to point out is that a good majority of the threads being closed still had relatively recent activity. you can scroll through the archived category for a bit and not even hit 2024

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I want to point out that none of these are mistakes. The rules around what is allowed in the projects category are changing slightly as @grotlover2 pointed out one of the criteria was if a game has a link to a playable version of the game. Be it proof of concept, demo, free, paid, etc. The games linked may have had devs stay something about the game giving an update status within a more recent time period but they have something that currently more fits in another section. Since there are 100’s of these types of games they are being archived currently. These games don’t meet the standard we are going to require for tagging within the Projects category because of their lack of playable version. These some of these type of posts would more commonly fit the Project Ideas & Discussion but for years in the past we’ve allowed devs to make posts for games in the Projects section.

wouldnt a “upcoming/unreleased” section make more sense then?
a game thats being made but isnt released yet is quite different from an abstract idea that someone just wanted to post.
edit: it is also quite different from “this category is for dead projects”

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I hear your concerns, I totally get where you’re coming from. We will have posts coming out about the Projects section and changes to it in detail, what we will be requiring, and what not before we reopen it. With updates to the tags we will require and some other criteria. There are projects that wouldn’t qualify for being in the category. That is generally what the clean is and reorg is for is updating things to our new standard and trying to take care of the projects that are currently here already. As we will be requiring future projects to be up to said standard before posting.

I think the concept of the Project Ideas & Discussion being for random ideas someone has that won’t go anywhere comes from the way it has been used in the past and the reinforcement that we for many years, way before I was on staff, allowed things that are basically just fleshed out concepts or plans in the Projects section. We wanted criteria to be made and easily understood by the community and staff about what would be and not be allowed in the Projects category. And rather than have it be a concept like “if they had something to show for it” which would be hard to moderate and could lead to results of some devs having their games being declined or removed from the projects section based on a more ambiguous concept. One line that was drawn was needing an actual playable version, even if it was a prototype or test maps, etc for something.

I think with the upcoming changes, which again we will outline in detail as we are ready to open the section back up, so please forgive me for being more vague for now or now details will follow soon in the future, but I believe the Project Ideas & Discussion section is the place upcoming/unreleased should go. Further splitting ideas, unreleased showcases, and playable projects in another section I think might be a step too far. However, I will say it’s not something set in stone and it’s something @grotlover2 and I can talk about.

I can’t promise anything on this end either but I think it’s likely in the future that we allow certain exceptions in the Projects category for devs that have internal builds they don’t want to showcase to the public yet but we can verify on our end and coordinate with the dev for posting in the section. It is something we will be internally talking about and considering.

deleting comments that point out the bans wont change the fact that this isnt the right way to approach things.

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Alright, cool. We’re censoring discussion in real-time now.

I put my money where my mouth was. I supported WG throughout the fundraising process despite my belief that things were going in the wrong direction. Really disappointed that that belief was vindicated.

Go ahead and throw my project in the archive as well. I think we’re done here.

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We try not to talk about specific bans publicly out of respect for the users who where banned. We have been mainly removing them because they have been mentioning the users in question.

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I’m sorry you feel that way, but @grotlover2 has been quite clear on what would be happening with the projects section since before even the donation drive, we appreciate you at least wanted to see the site continue, and appreciate your support, even temporary.

We don’t take banning a long time community member lightly and it was not a manner of just one instance, it was a long history of behavior. GUT and other projects are still on the site in the Archive section out of respect for that members previous contributions in light of the circumstances of the ban. If you have concerns over it please feel free to reach out to @grotlover2 or I in DMs. I don’t believe a public space is the correct place to address those concerns out of respect for the user.

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I don’t personally remember it ever being said in the prior months what specific guidelines there would need to be for Projects going forward and I definitely don’t remember that being said prior to donations in December.

Just now skimmed through the various news threads again so please point me to it if I’m wrong.

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The point is not about any specific user in question though. It’s blatant censorship if the users of this forum are not allowed to question WHY bans are given out in general. What do you think it says about moderation going forward?

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To be clear, I wasn’t under any illusion that the Projects forum was going to return exactly as it was; the administration has been more than clear in its disdain for certain elements of its handling. But the way it’s being handled now seems haphazard and asinine, and certainly not like the results of three months of consideration.

I mean, this should be pretty simple to understand. The moderation work in getting the Projects forum up to the new standard is the sum of all the existing projects that need to be reviewed, plus all of the topics that later need to be restored from the Archives once they meet the new requirements. To oversimplify it into an equation, W = (P + A). We can even quantify the burden per moderator by taking it a step further: B = (P + A)/M, where M is the number of moderators doing the review.

By reviewing everything before the new rules are even available, the value of A goes up drastically: most projects by users who are willing to comply with the new rules can’t. because the new rules haven’t even been given out. All of these users will then have to get a moderator involved once the rules are posted and they comply with the new requirements.

By posting the new rules and giving existing projects (presumably new posts would always be subject to the updated standards) a grace period, and then working through that queue of existing projects once that grace period ends, the value of A suddenly becomes much lower: the majority of active users will have complied, and there’s no reason for their projects to be archived, and no work in pulling them back from the archive. Further, because the new moderator(s) will presumably have been instated and brought up to speed by this point, both the burden per moderator and overall time of review also drop drastically.

But the larger source of my disagreement is how moderation has been handled on this topic. I don’t find the idea that we can’t mention a banned user to be at all ‘respectful’ of them or their work, and removing any mention of them being banned only leads to more people asking, because any information that would answer their question has already been scrubbed. It’s completely antithetical to good community management, especially when the information being wiped is directly relevant to the topic at hand (in this case, the forced archival of what might otherwise be seen as a model project).

Anyways, “out of respect”, I will not point out whether any specific user has been silenced in this topic for asking what were mostly reasonable questions about rules that are being enforced before they’ve even been given out, with the claim that their questions or observations had “No constructive purpose […] other than creating dissent within the community”, but just in case it’s not clear, I find that to be bullshit as well.

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We have not posted the new rules yet, but its really us just more strictly enforcing our existing rules. I would ask you wait until after the post with the updated rules is posted as that will help you ask more specific questions.

If it helps though, for the most part projects that are being distributed for free will largely be unchanged but we may be a bit more strict about what goes into Project Ideas & Discussion vs Projects just because we have been really lax about that in the past.

The larger change will deal with paywalled projects, and its more to address concerns of scams.

We dont know how well this might work out and we could end up rolling back these changes but @Krodmandoon and I think its worth a shot.

We really only deleted the posts because they mentioned specific users who where banned. I am actually ok with answering general concerns but I want to try to respect the privacy of those accounts the best I can. I am working on a post right now though with a bit more info on that if you wish to continue the conversation there. Should be up in about half an hour.

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To help avoid mayhem and mass panic in the future, may I suggest being more concrete and precise about what actions will be taken on the forum? All that was mentioned is that some projects would be archived, but no criteria and reasoning was outlined as to which posts would be archived or why they should be archived. I understand the updated rules should be posting soon and may help alleviate the confusion, but it does look bad the changes to be implemented were enforced without clarity or feedback from the community.

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At the risk of being melodramatic; I was user number 3. I was here when the rules were written. I enforced them for years. For whatever weight that gives my opinion:

This has been handled *extremely* unprofessionally and haphazardly and no amount of PR language will make up for that.

If you want this to be a community, then having the community trust you is key. Trust is something that takes a great deal of time and effort to build up and only a short time to lose. Right now you are burning trust that took the better part of a decade to build.

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Yep, you are very much correct on that. I usually prefer to do it that way but I didn’t want to risk any delays to reopening the Projects category. That was my bad though as I am favoring speed over procedure atm.

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