Let Us Know! Community Outreach Hub for New Rules/Site Changes

With the New Rules having been introduced and not being met with outright rejection, the Projects Section being opened up again, and the Wiki settling into a stable/usable state, we are moving forward with that as the foundation to build off of moving forward.

I’m hoping to be able to be able to continue to get feedback, critiques, and suggestions from the community moving forwards to get the site to what the community needs it to be and to have a readily accessible means of publicly responding and updating folks on what’s happening and a way to give your voices a place to be heard and shared. I apologize for the somewhat unorganized means of delivering this information so far, the previous topics were my attempts at a quick stop gap measure to get things out in the open sooner while we figure out a better long term way to go about it. This thread being what we came up with.

With that out of the way, the primary focus for this topic is that we are currently operating under the New Rules and abandoning the old ones the site has previously been using. However since there are likely things we’ve missed, or that some rules might need fine tuning and the like, we are using what I personally refer to as a “Soft Implementation” for the rules. For the month of April, we will be operating under the current new rules but also will be listening to feedback to allow for the rules to be discussed and actively refined by the community and the site staff together. Then at the end of the month the hope is that enough time and discussion has happened for the rules to be “Good Enough” to set them as the ‘officially agreed upon rules’ by everyone and we can “Finalize” them.

The secondary goal of this topic is to hear feedback and discussion for non rule related things that can be done for the site. Since we are in the process of a massive restructuring of how the site works, it seems like a good opportunity to give the site an update to address some of the legacy aspects that might be outdated or need fine tuning, hear suggestions or feedback on potential alternate ways of handling certain features, finding odd edge cases for interactions, addressing potential things that might get overlooked by the staff for being too close to the system backend to notice properly, and things like that as some examples.

We are bound by technical limitations and volunteer manpower however, so do keep that in mind with things you bring up. I do not say that to stifle creativity or feedback, but simply to establish that we can only do so much. But with that said, even if an idea might not be feasible, it could potentially lead to inspiration for something else that might be, so please don’t be shy with sharing your thoughts.

And since I know a lot of people tend to be ‘lurkers’ who tend to prefer to avoid engaging with stuff, here’s an anonymous poll to get a bit of a ‘vibe check’ to help us get a simple gauge for where we’re at. This is mostly me just trying to get an initial feel for what we’re doing more so than any ‘official voting/popularity poll’ type nonsense.

  • This sounds like a good idea
  • This sounds like a bad idea
  • I don’t know/I don’t care
0 voters
3 Likes

I would like to ask for clarification, when it comes to materials deemed obscene, the first prong of the miller test states "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", if those standards are based on the Communities they concern or is it the community of this site as a whole? More clearly, is it "vore content issues are judged by the vore community" and "Weight gain is judged by the weight gain community" Or is it "everyone on the site has a say"?

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Obscene, while not expressly limited to, mainly applies to the more universally agreed upon topics such as sexual or gruesome or violent type of content. Since WG, or vore, content, while a fetish, is still technically able to exist without an inherently obscene aspect. For instance, old kids cartoons of someone comically fat, or 'being swallowed by a whale' stories. So we are falling back on the miller test to judge that aspect for things that might cross the line. Games with sex scenes would count regardless of WG content, but the WG itself doesn't immediately flag it for instance.

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That is not what I asked. I will rephrase. Who sets the standard? Which community's standards are we operating under? Society at large? The Community of this board only? The community's involved in the work's contents? Mod discretion based off their own interpretation? I need to know which because they seem to be very different sets of what is acceptable.

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US Law sets the standard which could count as society at large. The way it works is vague enough that mod interpretation should suffice though. We can't leave it up to community interpretation as that has the chance for abuse such to say 'CSAM is ok and legal', which won't fly. Us mods can't overwrite CSAM justification either, but we should be able to justify 'It's not obscene they're just fat' that an Average Joe might not. Short answer is "US Law, filtered through mod interpretation of the content".To prevent WG from auto flagging as such and so the site bears responsibility, not just you

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Ok, makes sense. I would recommend putting that front and center in the section that mentions the miller test, because i have seen places that use the miller test framework but it is "community vibes" based not " What US law says" based. so instead of "(as dictated by the miller test)" something like " (as dictated by the miller test and US Law) " I know the sentence above it mentions us law, but having been on the other end of a 'miller test' that had nothing to do with what the law said one too many times makes me want to be absolutely clear. Hanged by a comma once too often ETC.

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6 Answers

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This is small potatoes, but I have a question about the merging of the Game Design Discussion and Dev Advice subforums

A few months back, I made a thread about a design problem and a list of games and how they addressed that problem. I asked about other approaches to this design problem, but in a broad way, not in a way looking for a specific solution. Game Design Discussion felt like the right place to make that thread

Dev Advice has a very StackOverflow design, which encourages a specific question + best answer format that would not fit the style of my thread. If I wanted to make another broad, free-flowing design discussion thread like my earlier one, will the new merged category still be the best place for it? If not, where should something like it go?

The StackOverflow design is a per category setting thing. The Game Design Discussion will be merged as a subcategory of the Dev Advice section. I also agree with your assessment of the discussion style suiting that type of topic. I brought it up with Grot and it seems like leaving that sub category as a normal discussion style should be possible but I'll double check with them during the merge to try and make sure that setting doesn't get overlooked or get back to you if a problem occurs. Hopefully that answers your question. And thank you for pointing out a potential oversight!

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I hope the penalty for new rules is lenient – it’s so big and comprehensive, I couldn’t remember it all. (◞‸◟)

This is part of the reason for the Soft Implementation period, so that there is a decent enough grace period for everyone to acclimate to the changes. Overall, the majority of the rules shouldn't be that different for casual users so I don't think you'll need to worry too much. The majority of it is mostly making what the rules used to be less vague, and outlining the new procedures on how projects and tags will be handled. I do have to officially state since I am a moderator that you should read the rules though.

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I have a suggestion and also an issue report of sorts.

First, my suggestion:

I suggest that only the AI art/VA tags be blocked by default (leave the code out of it).

Why I think this is reasonable:

  • Nobody was really complaining about AI code (at least from what I saw, it was mostly complaints about art)
  • AI code (help me write this function/how do I make a function do this/ can you convert this scenario into renpy compatible format, etc…) is fundamentally different than AI art. I mean this in the sense that with AI, the art is the end result (it’s direct output of AI), whereas with code, you are using AI to help you implement your vision/make your software do what you want it to.
  • (this one is a doosie) It’s essentially impossible to prove that code is AI, so dishonest people will have an advantage over honest folks… If nobody really cares, why not remove this incentive structuret?

Ultimately whatever the site decides is fine, it’s not like this is my livelihood or anything. Just wanted to make my case, since I saw at least one other person express that their project had AI code and they were disappointed that they had to nerf its visibility.

Next, my issue/bug report.

I have tried opening the site in incognito (without logging in) and it appears that all of the AI tagged games are hidden for me. As I understand it, this is not supposed to be the case.

For AI code, it's more of a technicality. I understand the case for handing busywork to AI but since we can't properly verify code ourselves, we have to rely on users self tagging things with our 'official stance' outlined clearly. Otherwise we end up with odd edge cases such as a game that was 100% generated by AI code winning a gamejam that banned AIGC causing problems that makes the current system more reliable overall. Less so a case of 'will it happen', but 'CAN it happen' and the large difference between them. The bug is unexpected though. I'll pass it along and discuss it with staff.

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Any update on the filtering bug/issue?

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My apologies. My month has been crazy and I forgot to get back. I'm genuinely sorry. It turns out that Discourse had an update we were unaware of that 'fixed' that behavior. We found out after implementing things. As it stands, we'll be simply leaving it as it is. We're not even sure if we can really 'undo' what the update did. We do recognize that if overly affects the GenAI, so we'd like to still try to have avenues in place so that that section is not COMPLETELY cut off. A current concept is to have a pinned 'How to set tags' thread for new/unlogged users but we're still thinking of things

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No worries. It's just an odd bug... As for using a pinned thread, I don't think it will help the current issue. Even if tags are cleared, and I select "uses-gen-ai" as my only tag, it shows "no results". The only way I've found that works to make AI games visible when unlogged is by directly searching them by name.

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... That's not what should be happening. If the 'uses-gen-ai' tag is removed from the muted category, they should appear just like anything else. That was the whole point. Hmm, just to verify you do have the tag cleared from the muted section correct? If so I'll need to bring that up to get resolved. https://forum.weightgaming.com/t/guide-how-to-filter-tags-categories/59460

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This discussion might get into some ‘squeamish’ territory for some folks as this is in regards to Pregnancy and not Weight Gain content, so fair warning for those who do not wish to interact with such things.

This is a bit of an odd one to post but it’s a topic that’s been brought up a couple times as of late that I figured should be shared/addressed regarding pregnancy content in games recently. In and of itself, pregnancy is not against the rules, we even mention it in them. It’s a lot of the things that pregnancy deals with that become problematic. Namely the legal issues of ‘Adult and/or Fetish Content involving minors’.

Our general consensus we’ve come to is that pregnancy is generally fine as long aspects involving minors is not involved. Main instances potentially being graphic birthing scenes and ‘Xray’ or similar type interactions where the fetus or child can be seen and/or showcased. These are obvious cases of where the 'fetish content’ is directly involved with the ‘presence of an underage character’ and since this is primarily a Weight Gain community and not a generalized NSFW one, and since this is a rather precarious legal stance to take to even think about allowing that sort of thing, we’re making the choice to have such content be in violation of our rules. A side note however is that ‘Xray’ type interactions that are somewhat common in other Adult media don’t violate that rule and would simply be classified as NSFW as appropriate, assuming no other rule is being violated in the process. It’s the underage aspect that causes the issue in this particular case.

With that clear, pregnancy is still allowed like I said. As long as births either, do not take place in the game, or if they do, are handled in some sort of ‘fade to black’ or other similarly ‘off screen’ way, then it should likely be in agreement with our rules.

A bit of an odd ‘gray area’ however, is how a game/narrative handles children after that point. Children are allowed to be in a project as a background character to provide a bit of set dressing for the world and such generally as long as they are not involved with fetish style content. But pregnancy being a fetish makes that a troublesome line to determine what counts as ‘fetish’ and what counts as ‘narrative set dressing’. Overall though, it’s a really fine line to walk having any children in any project.

We will ultimately deal with instances like this on a case by case basis but the general rule of thumb is to just not involve children with these sorts of things in projects to avoid any of these issues from needing to be resolved in the first place.

Dropping my reply to the above thread here since we reached the 10 reply limit.

As it stands right now, a quick look at the topics posted in projects within the last month shows a clear viewership bias to non-ai posts.

This indicates to me that your scenario of people feeling cheated by “preferential treatment” is already looming.

Maybe most of the devs just aren’t aware of it, but it feels bad to know that I’m getting like 40% of my potential audience because of some UI quirk.

Don’t want to start AI war 2.0 over here… but it does seem that some good games are being made invisible to about 1/2 of their potential player base.

I'll chime in to add that I've been a lurker for years and only realized everything tagged as using gen AI was being hidden from me right before I found the post above this. That's what prompted me to create my account, because as someone largely unfamiliar with Discourse, I had no idea if there was a way to make the uses-gen-ai tag visible without logging in. What I want to specifically call out as concerning to me is that I couldn't easily find any official announcement that anything tagged as using generative AI was hidden by default.

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Ugh. It appears the AI tag announcement was only put in as a News post and not in the rules itself. That is a rather massive oversight and I'll work at addressing that. That's a major reason I made this thread to be informed of things we missed and find amicable solutions for those affected.This topic might be getting a little bigger than can be reasonably addressed through these small comments.I'll see if Grot can bump up or remove these arbitrary limits. I don't want to start AI war 2.0 either, but perhaps opening a dialog to the community in a staff thread about this might be a direction?

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But other than 'reversing the default tag decision', what options would any of you potentially consider as an acceptable compromise? We do not wish to silence creators, but the AI war 1.0 caused us to need to do something to address things and this was a 'decent' answer we were able to reach. It's by no means perfect so help us figure out what we can do to make things work and I'll see what we can do about it. Also, it'll be a bit wierd, but feel free to use the normal Replies in the thread if you need to. Try to say what you're replying about though.

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I don't feel that I have much of a horse in this race, given how long I was a lurker and that I don't use generative AI, but I'll lend my take that the best compromise would have simply been to hold to "all projects are required to tag whether or not they use generative AI" and encourage users to curate their own experiences by blocking tags themselves. "Content using generative AI is hidden by default" feels like it should accompany taking a position that generative AI use is discouraged here, which, if that is the case, I would like to see it clearly stated in the site rules.

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Opening a dialogue is a good idea. I think devs who use AI (for code or images) should be made aware of what's going on. Also, the original correspondence from Grot was that the default hiding will not affect unlogged users. But it seems that due to technical issues this is not the case. So while what was originally proposed was 'decent', the actual current state is (in my opinion) not decent. Rather than working for its intended purpose (limit AI debates from commenters) it completely hides the game from the 50% of people who can't/wont even comment anyway (lurkers).

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Has there been any further activity on this? Maybe I missed something… I’ve been busy and not on the site lately