The Problem of the Reluctant Gainer PC

Game Design Discussion
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Warning: This is a very theorywank/overthinking type post

Been toying with a few game ideas and thinking about the Problem of the Reluctant Gainer PC, where a player wants the player character to be fat but that character does not want to be fat.

Reluctant gainers are of course a common part of the fetish, whether that’s to play up a sense of realism, stoke a humiliation kink, set up an arc of self-actualization, or more. For NPCs, it’s straightforward to show their reluctance and have the player character (PC) push their limits[1]. But for a PC Reluctant Gainer, there’s friction where the player’s goals and the PC’s goals are at odds.

I want to look at ways other designers have addressed, avoided, or played with the Problem of the Reluctant Gainer PC. Here are a few approaches and case studies I have found:

Revel in Failure

Gaining weight leads to failing the main objective. This approach seems to emphasize Bad Endings and other Bad Outcome scenes, with special kinky images or descriptions during fail states. Pairs well with short sandbox/toybox games, or games with loss of control as a theme.

Examples:

  • Week of the Werefatty (post Gain Jam): The player must solve puzzles in order to prevent the PC from overeating. Failing has special scenes of indulgence, and failing compounds such that it is possible to get too fat to solve later puzzles
  • Cursed!: Ostensibly the PC does not want to experience any of the TFs of this game, but the player’s real goal is to find all of the (bad) endings
  • Five Nights with Fatties: In the original Freddy’s, failing means getting a jumpscare, but the player does want to be scared at some point by the game. Similarly, failing in Fatties means getting a weight gain/inflation scene, but the player does want to see those scenes at some point in the game

Fated

The PC’s gain is entirely out of the player’s control. A curse, a controlling feeder, plot demands, etc. This gives the designer a lot of control over how “realistically” the PC can act. However, the player loses the ability to influence the PC’s weight, and working toward the main object may means ending the fetish content early. Most common in story-driven games and race-against-the-clock games

Examples:

Acceptable Cost

The PC is willing to put up with weight gain to advance another goal. A common approach, with the PC gambling their waistline for riches, glory, or the sake of another person

Examples:

Toy with the Contradiction

Openly plays with the ambiguity of player-desired fat and PC-desired thinness. This might allow the player to drive an arc of reluctance to acceptance, lean into a humiliation kink, or invoke a twist ending that upends the stated main objective

Examples:

Player-Directed

The PC’s attitude is either chosen by the player or left unstated in a way that allows room to roleplay reluctance. These tend to be sandbox games with no or a very thin overarching goal

Examples:

~

These categories are probably not exhaustive, and some of my example (like Olive and the Ruby Bra) already have moments that can fall into multiple categories. Has anyone seen any other approaches? Have more granular thoughts about designing around a Reluctant Gainer PC?

Footnotes

[1] Or have the NPCs’ own actions reveal their secret desires
[2] There are multiple bad endings that will cause the main character to grow even fatter, but these are not emphasized in the way they tend to be in “Revel in Failure” games
[3] Uses AI art

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I’ve always had trouble getting super involved in Reluctant Gainer PC games, at least the usual hard-scripted ones. I’ve tried RPing a couple in a tabletop environment, though the GM’s influence is massive and the arc I’d want to orchestrate just often didn’t pan out. I do think the idea is best explored in a more open-ended context though. I want to create a situation where I, the player, don’t feel too bad about the Reluctant PC getting big, which is most easily accomplished when you have control over the character’s personality and interactions beyond what a scripted character would have.

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Oh, hey, I made one of those games! I appreciate the mention, as this whole concept is something that I’ve grappled with a lot in both working on the games I’ve done and even in my story writing. I think one other reason that we see so much Reluctant Gaining in WG related media beyond the major ones you mentioned is conflict.

For obvious reasons, a story typically has some sort of conflict. “She wanted to be a fat of she so she became a fat of she, the end” can at least be enjoyable if you write a lot of good descriptions, it can be hard to get a lot of juice from writing a narrative without some conflict. Or, at least, something that isn’t a very short story. This goes double for games, imo. There has to be some reason that the game is stopping me from making a fat of she that I need to overcome, otherwise… where game? And, if you’re looking to generate conflict, having your main character be initially diametrically opposed to the main goal of your game/story/video/etc. is a great option.

However, that does open up to one of my biggest problems with Reluctant Gainer PCs: Ludo-narrative Dissonance. You actually picked out a lot of games that I think handle this issue with aplomb, however many, many more games… don’t, sadly. It’s one think to have your PC be opposed to your goals as the player, but the problem is when it goes against the gameplay, too. A lot of games that use this trope frequently use the bad ending approach, which is often a fail state. Or, they will make fat a negative effect. The gameplay itself encourages the player to win battles/solve puzzles/etc. to progress it, but then actually punishes them by hiding the content they came for behind punishments for losing, and/or making the gameplay worse, which most people are hardwired to want to avoid.

This was actually one of my core design principles behind “Cursed!”. If you notice, the way the game is built it is technically a “fated” sub-type game, as it is also a race against the clock. I designed the game to be one where bad endings aren’t just the goal - they’re inevitable. There is no solution or way to not end up fat. The only “failure” is that you didn’t figure out one of my moon logic puzzle sequences to unlock a new ending in time. But I also designed the game to be a short, easy to repeat loop so that you didn’t get frustrated trying to go back and try again.

Great discussion piece, I’m glad to see someone talk about one of the more “meta” topics of game design in general and how it interacts with our particular niche. Ultimately, for me, I find it to be a very powerful trope for mining conflict from and, when used correctly, can offer some real unique games and ideas. However, it is a trope most easily victimized by ludo-narrative dissonance and devs need to be more considerate of how they interact with it.

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Lipomancer Series mentioned :partying_face:

The biggest problem with making a game with a Reluctant Gainer PC, in my opinion, is the dissonance between the PC’s desires (as dictated by the writing) and the PC’s actions (as dictated by the player). The only scenarios where these two things really synergize are when:

A) The player actively avoids trying to make the PC gain weight, but the outside world pushes back heavily (my favorite method, but it only works if the player is really into reluctant gaining).

B) The player does not control the PC, but rather acts as either an outside or subconscious force, nudging the PC towards the path of gluttony. This option is far less common, but I’ve seen it at least played with a few times.

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Oooh, hadn’t even thought about tabletop and RP. Extra levels and constraints you don’t get in video games. I gotta go back to the lab on this one.

I did notice in my survey that there aren’t a lot of games that let you directly control how your character feels (probably because it would take a lot of writing/assets?)

Good point about the easy source of conflict. And the dissonance you point out above is the heart of the issue to me. You can design around that dissonance, and there’s a history in weight gain and other tf games around seeking out bad endings, but it’s a hard problem!

Ooh, I can see this. I thought of it as “Revel in Failure” because you are expecting to fail… but then you’re kind of in line with the goals of the game because breaking the curse is impossible? More thinking needed…

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Tramp is the only game that immediately comes to mind. By running with certain options, you can easily have the PC gear towards “I know I should really lose weight, but I really really don’t want to diet”

EDIT: OH and also Project BOB. I’m rather fond of the idea of the mechanics presented, like the PC pushing back against the player’s choices (ie deciding to change exercise routines/eating habits), but I can see why the game didn’t end up being very popular (the mechanics could be frustrating, very slow and grindy pacing, the writing was clearly an afterthought, the clothis system was pain incarnate, the dev was so focused on the NPC generation mechanic (despite their ideas being impossible in the engine they were using) that everything else went neglected and the project died, etc). I wish it was given more time to cook/that the dev would let people mod it.

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Did this affect your choice to make Ruins run-based? Feels like the world can only push back for so long before it becomes infeasible to keep the game going

(I think Week of the Werefatty can kinda work like this, but only if you’re bad at environmental puzzles)

Yeah, I remember Spirit of Hunger - CH.2 IS NOW OUT! approaches this literally with you playing a gluttony-stoking spirit. But for me, Here’s Butterball is a great subtle example driven by good writing (the PC putting herself down or making excuses for gluttonous choices, plus the feeding dream at the beginning that frames her actions)

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This has definitely been an influencing factor in a lot of my games, though I try to take a more dynamic approach, where the more that the player lets the game get its way, the harder the game will push, resulting in a high chance of a downward spiral.

The best example of this philosophy (and its opposite) I can think of is in Ruins’ exercise system. When exercising, the game will run a calculation based on the PC’s weight. The higher the PC’s weight is, the more likely the villagers will interrupt her, and the more extreme the interruptions will be (ranging from giving her enough snacks to cancel out the weight lost to hosting a full-on feast that results in the PC ending up even fatter than she was before exercising).

Of course, I also worked a safety net into this system where interruptions will become more likely as the player gets closer to a critically low weight (hence “and its opposite”).

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I spend a lot of time designing games and ideas for them but never actually doing something with it. This problem, however, has come up pretty frequently in the way I try to write protagonists. One idea I come back to a lot is something closer to “a beast within” trope. The character knows they shouldn’t indulge these urges they have within them and spend a lot of effort trying to stay the path, but there keeps coming a point they can’t control themselves anymore. One game that I’ve been considering actually turning into something uses this to effectively set up scenes and reasons for the actual gameplay segments. The cutscenes are mostly talking and internal monologues that set up the character fighting their temptations before the player is given control to cut loose. Sometimes this is because the character just recognized a chance they might not get again. Other times the protag is being directly set up for the scenario by another character that is acting like an in-universe corrupting force. The goal is to keep a bit of a duality of agency between both the player character and the player. You take turns having the reigns before being forced to give it up. But you know you’ll get your chance at control soon. It’s only a matter of time until the protag will get hungry again

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Shout out to my only other game - the very half-cooked Gain Jam entry “A Heavy Influence” - where you are the main character’s subconscious spirit (I guess? I went a bit weird with this) that yearns for someone to be fat and you influence parts of the environment in random scenes to push her into being a feeder, feedee, or mutual gainer. I liked the notion but never got around to fleshing it out. But it was certainly a lot of work and path writing, especially in Twine. It’s definitely a type of game begging for more exploration.

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Also, I’d like to give a shoutout to Nebutori’s Tale, as well as one particular twist on the Fated archetype: the Reality Shift/Warp.

What do you mean you’ve been gaining weight? You’ve always been this fat.

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Yes! I’ve been making private mods of that game to teach myself Quest.

The main idea I’m toying with is kinda both. An incubus comes to the PC at night to fatten them up, with a “does the protag want this and is just not willing to admit it” vibe. “You called, we came.”

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Not too long ago there some topics about the how gaining weight is done both in the sense of the narrative and how affects gameplay. But when is about the PC and their reaction or attitude towards it is something that I often think with my own characters.

Having the PC dislike or being reluctant about gaining weight isn’t bad, but how is approached is what I think isn’t often done properly. The PC is supposed to be your avatar in the game and what they do is a reflection of what you want, but if they are reluctant to gain weight (demonstrated by dialogue, interactions or their personality) and the player actively forces them to do the contrary, then it’s a complete contradiction of the character. To put it in short, Is out of character.

I know you can write a character to do stuff that otherwise they wouldn’t, but it shouldn’t be making them do something they actively try to avoid. That’s why I personally dislike when the fetish content is through stuff like bad endings and getting penalized for not trying to play the game.

It’s quite obvious, but is important to note that, if your PC dislikes something initially, you can make them change their minds througout the story of the game, but sometimes games don’t do that. And if they do something out of character, is simply ignored or quickly dismissed and never brought up. Or even worse, they change their minds but is so sudden that It’s like they are a completely different character.

When making Una nueva vida (my game), I wanted to give each of the protagonist their own reason as to why they can and want to gain weight and for Reiko (the slime girl and first character), she is very reluctant but does it because she needs to gain weight to use her skillls and through interactions I’m hinting that her attitude may change. I know it sounds simple, but I’ve seen a lot of times where details like these are not taken in consideration and it feels like a big elipsis just happened between each moment.

There should be reason as to why X happened to the PC and all other characters.

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I have a fun idea in Delicious FATe for immobility not being the end of the game, but you never lose the weight-- where you are no longer the main character. Will explore it for its best expression before sharing more <3

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There’s a reason why mentally I categorize “Bad Enders” into their own subgenre of wg game (Lysithea Sweet Escapades, Lanna’s Adventure, etc.). Usually if I’m having that said friction with the pc of me wanting to push the gains to happen and them bitching and moaning about it I just stop caring about the story from the PC’s perspective and more side with the villains who are causing the gains. So generally while playing a Badender, I don’t care about the plot outside of how it gets the most gains as possible. I think Roundbound and Project Atlas are the best overall badenders since overall I like it when the player character starts out reluctant but slowly and surely becomes wanting of the gains themselves (With Roundbound you’re an allegedly reluctant avatar of the Goddess of Gluttony, and with Project Atlas the disdain comes from how the catgirls are treated as fattened pets that it’s up to the player if they lean in to it. I generally don’t recommend people to make the PC reluctant unless they really really REALLY R E A L L Y know what they’re doing since it is a very easy concept to mess up and then you have a break between audience and author expectation, as I start clinking glasses with the bad guys as the gains happen and barely remember what the now fatties name even was.

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I really like that someones going into this sorta thing, it’s a pretty common ‘trope’ given it’s considered normal to be against this sorta thing (grrr societal norms grrr) but it does cause friction as you say, since it’s exactly what the player’s goal isnt.

In my experience it’s hard writing a kink game when characters in the game are intrinsically against it. Sure in the cases that a character grows to accept it or like it, there is still a little nagging voice telling them whether or not something ‘seems right’. Then you have to gratify the moments where the character gives into that temptation, as if it was there, but that sorta thing has to be alluded to beforehand or else it doesnt make as much sense and it’s almost out of left field? eehh?

I do think it has its place in this genre of game tho cuz friction is typically what gets stories going, which is probably why OATRB is in the category that it’s in. The plot is set by it and demands it, and the story continues with that friction as a focus but slowly diminished as the character gets more and more used to it, perhaps even liking it? I like the possible room of growth (mentally not physically (maybe also physically)) that something like this sorta demands.

all in all i dont really know what im saying, im just saying something cuz i saw the mention and this is a really interesting thing to think about. People should think about things critically! it’s not always a good or bad thing, sometimes bad things are necessary and good things aren’t. whatever you decide as a designers is what’s right for your funny thing!

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This topic reminded me that I need to get working on a game inspired by this!
Would something like this suit the idea?

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100%. I hope my categorization didn’t feel like a putdown. The approach is valid, and I like every example game I’ve listed (including OATRB!). Also I don’t trust any art theorizer who would say, “This category I made up is where are the bad games live.”

Feels like a classic Revel in Failure/Badender in my model. Go for it!

(And also, I’m not some authority or anything. I put thought and effort into my post, but it isn’t some unassailable work of truth. Break my model! Maybe we’ll find something better)

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A little late to the discussion, but as someone who prefers the reluctant gainer setup, the contradiction when it comes to games has always been interesting to me.

Personally, my favourite of these categories is the ‘Acceptable Cost’ angle. I like seeing a more grounded, ‘normal’ protagonist having to gain to achieve their actual goals, with the player and the PC on the same page but for different reasons. Lilith’s Lair is a great example of this, taking situations that feel like Bad Endings and turning them into humiliations the protagonist has to endure to continue her quest.

Something that wasn’t covered that could be a subcategory of ‘Toy with the Contradiction’ is a less narratively deep but very direct approach: breaking the fourth wall. Admittedly I can only think of one example of this, Avril’s Appetite, which revolves entirely around a self-aware protagonist actively objecting to being in a weight gain game. That game has the fourth-wall break as central to the premise, but a similar tack could be used more sparingly in anything with a light-hearted setting, and I’m sure there’s a possibility someone could turn it into something a little deeper as well.

It does raise another question, though - where do you draw the line between a PC and a protagonist? I did wonder if maybe Avril’s Appetite doesn’t fit this discussion because Avril may not count as a PC - the game is entirely built around the fact that you don’t directly control her - but she’s the one everything happens to, and the ‘player’ isn’t a ‘character’, it’s just you, whoever you are.

NPCs are mentioned in the OP as being easy to present as reluctant gainers, so maybe it’s simply that a character like Avril is an NPC, but there’s an interesting grey area there between games where the PC is an actual well-defined personality in the world interacting with multiple NPCs, and one where they’re essentially a loosely-sketched means of interacting with a single main character who you’re not directly controlling but are influencing the journey of. This goes beyond just fourth-wall-breaking games, too - it’s easy to imagine all sorts of genres doing this. Apologies if this is straying from the topic of it specifically being about PCs, though.

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It doesn’t work for every game, but one of the simplest solutions is to write a character that loves to eat, but doesn’t want to get fat.

That way, the player’s actions can make sense as being driven by their momentary hunger and their regret afterwards can be believable. This is by far the most common attitude held by people in real life who are struggling with their weight, after all.

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